AR-15 Best for SHTF

[BRONZE]

Thoughts

you can carry a whole lot of it. 300 rds = 8lbs.

What does everybody think.

[rtgunsmoke]

better to have a para type Fal. 308 has a better kill ratio than the 223. yes you can hold more 223 on you but, 308 will kill at a long range. 223 up close. i have both, the FAL and AR15's better to bug in than out~R

[Arizona Highlander]

Even though I’m not usually an AR-kinda guy, it’s admittedly an excellent choice if one is concerned primarily about weight (a valid concern indeed, if you’re planning on getting out on foot). I wouldn’t trick it out into a “Rooney Gun,” though, if I wanted to keep it light. A 12-pound AR is, in my view, something of a bad joke (though, if it’s a scoped, heavy-barreled AR, and intended as a medium-range sniping weapon, then it might actually be kinda cool. That’s something of a specialty weapon, though).

However, if weight isn't such an issue (a “car gun” for example) I’d still prefer something in .30 cal, simply for its better penetration through hard barriers. A FAL or M1A would be great, and even an AK (with the now banned-from-import Chinese steel-core ammo) would fill the bill nicely here.

Inasmuch as I’ve got a stash of that Chinese steel-core ammo, I’ve been eying a folding stock AK for a while now. It would sure do the trick on the bad guys in a “drive by” situation!

[W.E.G.]

I suscribe to the DRT (die right there) theory of survival.

Ammo weight is not a major concern except when I have to move it to clean the storage area.

I will most definitely NOT be doing any LRRP's or leaping any 6-foot fences.

[richbug]

If you are going somewhere, a light AR might be fine. If you want to defend the homestead from maurading zombies, the FAL is the obvious choice.

[lew]

Since I don't plan on bugging out, the FAL is the obvious choice for me. I'd rather have the extra power over the 5.56.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

I have used both (M4 and 240B/C) in the "real world" and with military ball the 7.62 is a much better man stopper. I have seen center mass hits with 5.56 from 75m that failed to stop someone, they we're dead, just still walking. On the other hand I have seen 900m hits with 7.62 that were show stoppers, instantaneous incapacitation. I used to own AR-15s exclusively because that was what I knew, after my first tour I sold all my ARs and went to an FAL that is a good combination of CQB rifle and long range shooter. At 13lbs it isn't light, but a good compromise between the 8lb AR I had and the 22lb M240B I humped in the sand box for a while. Mine is in no way a standard FAL so I bet you can get them much lighter. When you start to modify them for long range accuracy (18" fluted HB, free float tube, scope, etc.) the lbs. add up. When you figure you need twice as many hits for incapacitation with 5.56 then the 7.62 doesn't seem so heavy.

[Dr. X]

If you want to defend the homestead from maurading zombies, the FAL is the obvious choice...

I totally agree. Since I ain't goin' to "bug out" and am not loaded down with ammo, I want every shot to make maximum mincemeat out of marauders...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[Goldenspurholderx2]

Yep, bugging in here too. Just like to be prepared in case I get burned out.

[Dr. X]

I suscribe to the DRT (die right there) theory of survival...

:D :D :D It sure beats the crap out of running away and dying tired...;)

as ever,
Dr. X

[mikec]

Do you change the weapon you want IF a member of your group/family can't handle that caliber? Let's say small stature female who can't effectively use an M1A or FAL but can handle the AR. Do you have multiple weapons or just one platform?

[Dr. X]

Do you change the weapon you want IF a member of your group/family can't handle that caliber? Let's say small stature female who can't effectively use an M1A or FAL but can handle the AR. Do you have multiple weapons or just one platform?

I switched to .308 when I scored my FAL and haven't looked back. I have no wife anymore, but the intact survival-oriented families I have spoken with have had to adapt down to .223. (It's more of a magazine and ammo compatibility issue) On the bright side, you could have both and have the best of both worlds. No weapon is useful if the person cannot fire it effectively...:)

as ever,
Dr. X

[Ryder]

I have AR's and my M1A ;)

One thing I keep telling folks when they say the 5.56 round has no stopping power is that I'm not governed by the Genevia Convention. I Can and Will use HP, SP and Ballistic tipped rounds.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

I have AR's and my M1A ;)

One thing I keep telling folks when they say the 5.56 round has no stopping power is that I'm not governed by the Genevia Convention. I Can and Will use HP, SP and Ballistic tipped rounds.

That's cool man, use what ya got. I would just find it prohibitive to get together 1000 rounds of HP. If you can swing it more power to ya!:)

[J. Armstrong]

I'm a firm beliver in 7.62x51, and a diehard FALluvver ( nothing wrong with some others such as the M1A), so I confess to some prejudice here !
That said, there are some situations where I might grab the little CAR, but you can bet they are fairly specialized.
Ryder makes a valid observation, but one must remember that in gaining stopping power in soft tissue, you lose penetration. Tailoring the round to the job is great - provided you can predict your engagement environment and have the time to swap out ammo accordingly. IMHO, 7.62 still wins on versatility . Of course, the 5.56 you have with you is better than the major caliber rifle sitting at home in the safe !
If you can only have one, make it a FAL !!

[Goldenspurholderx2]

Do you change the weapon you want IF a member of your group/family can't handle that caliber? Let's say small stature female who can't effectively use an M1A or FAL but can handle the AR. Do you have multiple weapons or just one platform?

My case it's all me. I 'll probally pick up a 4-5" barreled .357 for the wife that I can down load to .38s. Keep in mid my wife has NO survival midset and HATES guns. It will just be something for her to defend with if she ever sees the light so I'm not dumping a lot of resources into it.

[SmokeEater2]

Well,I don't plan to bug out (I'm already out in the sticks anyway) 'cause I don't see the point in trying to figure out how much ammo I can carry when I've got a half a zillion rounds at home.
Now if I get caught away from home when the SHTF,the choice is easy,A 17 in. bbl. FAL lives behind the seat of my truck at all times so that will get me home. Once I get there I have a bunch more FAL's for back-up and my wife has a M-4 clone so I think I'm covered.:)

[valkyrie10]

Why do I get the impression most of us have jumped over from Falfiles?

[kfranz]

Because we have. I figure if I have problems that can't be solved with 140 rounds of 7.62, my time was meant to be up.

Besides, I figure the odds are much better that I'll die from a heart attack moving ammo than from "engaging the xxxx invaders" anyway.

[lew]

Besides, I figure the odds are much better that I'll die from a heart attack moving ammo than from "engaging the xxxx invaders" anyway.

Ain't that the truth. Those cases of South African don't get any lighter.

[Mouse]

The eternal question with no answer!
It really depends on what you're going to do, stay in place or move on foot.

Personally I'm with WEG on this one, I'm staying put.
An AR is almost useless where I'm at, I need someting that can reach out farther than that. I have hundreds of yards of "killin field":p all around me, I need at least a .30 cal to reach out, and a fifty is helpful to.

[tedbo]

Valkyrie10,YUP!I am in the country and don't intend to bug out.7.62 for me and wifey,.223 to get me home if I am caught in town and the zombies try to hit.762x39 for anyone visitin'!

[ERE]

I`m SIP too.....although I might have to go loot some corn and sugar to keep thangs goin!! ;)

Got`s ARs, M1s, and FALs....plenty ammo for all.

[akfanatic]

For SHTF I would dig the AR or even better an AK.
SHTF to me means a situation that is temporary.
TEOTWAWKI on the other had means that shit has gone REALLY wrong and that I would have to bug out from my 'bug in' location. For this I would want a FAL or M14 mated with a .308 bolt action (SWS) for ammo standardization.
Opinions?

[TheOtherChris]

308 makes a great battle cartridge for defense of a fixed position or when you have a supply line. My long range Win70 Heavy Varmint in 308 would be my first choice with my FAL nearby if I stay put.
Wife prefers an AR.
Kids like the AKs, ARs, FALs, CETMEs, 10/22s, 870s etc. and know how to shoot them all.

When travelling, I usually keep a take down 22lr and 100rds, just to get me home. Reasoning is that If hostiles are out of range of a 22lr, they're probably no threat to me anyway. Remember, I am just trying to get home; not LRRP.

[ROCKSHUND]

3 out of my 5 30 cal's are MBR's, 2 of those are FAL's, one of those is an 18" carbine...and that's my huckleberry. :cool: -FNR.

[411man]

Many of the limitations of what the 5.56 (.223( round can do will present big problems in a radical survival situation. I am thinking in terms of the need to penetrate heavy obstacles or structures, quickly stop a vehicle mounted attack, or hunt larger game to name three of the biggest limitations.

I like the 20" HBAR myself but the A.O. in which one must survive in should clue one as to the choice of which callibre and rifle to select.

[fry]

a small statured female can handle an m1 m1a and a fal if she has the will.

i really just wanted to see what my survivaholic number is.

[Dr. X]

a small statured female can handle an m1 m1a and a fal if she has the will...

Especially if there are charging hordes of SCZ's crossing the river...;) :D

as ever,
Dr. X

[adamweinerog]

I really dig a 16" Fal carbine with an aluminum lower, it winds up being a shade under 9 lbs.

[BRONZE]

So you guys are going to have the Uh-60s resupplying you after you run out of 7.62.

7.62-120rds.=8 lbs.

5.56-300rds.=8 lbs.

[Dr. X]

7.62-120rds.=8 lbs.

5.56-300rds.=8 lbs.


Twice as many rounds, true, but how many shots in .223 to keep a man down? One .308 does the job. I'll stick with the larger round...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[snolden]

I will bite.

.30 cal all the way. AK and FAL for me. Maybe if the S waits a few years before it HTF, I can get an AR but my FAL deal walked up to me and I couldn't pass it up.

AK is just for the trunk of the car.

I can comfortably carry 6+1 mags and 2 bandoliers with a full load. I ain't jumping much but I can still run with that load.

260 rounds is fine for me.

Even here in town where I live distances can be easily 200 yards. Outside town (~1 mile in any direction), you can see for 20 miles. Distances will be pretty extreme by any standard.

[Burt Gummer]

I'm in the .30-cal camp. IMHO, it's just more versitile:


Offers better terminal performance. Yes, you can carry more .223 rounds ... you'll need them! :p

The .308 can turn cover into concealment.

Better range for what it's worth (you most likely wouldn't be shooting past 300 yards and more realistically within 100 yards).

It can be used for hunting (not the best option post-SHTF).

[OREGON FAL'ER]

I have an AR, AK and a couple FALs. I find im not as proficient with the AR. The reason for this is pretty lame but here it goes. I hate cleaning AR's (very intricate and detailed). So when I head out into the wild to do some blasting I get to thinking about having to clean what I shoot and the AR doesn't get to go very often. Fals and AK's are actually fun to clean( for me). Besides I built up a 16 1/4 imbel with lightweight lower that is close to the weight of my AR. Nate out

[FN74]

I stick with NATO caliber weapons as primaries. I have AKs and other stuff, but my main go to is .308 FAL and several AR15s.

[az1]

hehe...die right there...i like that....:D ..that's why i like my M1a scout..
one hit ..down...

[Ducttape]

Bugging-in at the homestead with my STG, wife, kids and critters. I did pick up some Ruger Mini-14's for my daughters to better handle , I was issued an M16A1 when I was 17 and it sucked. Not to mention that the factory that now builds them for the military says that 4", thats right FOUR INCHES at 100 yards is what they requier to pass muster. Screw that , I get 1 1/2 " groups with our mini's useing green laquer WOLF.

Only way I 'll take one is when we will be picking them up off the ground.

[G2]

We use AR's for squirrel huntin an such. FAL's is fer the serious sh**t.
Bugin/Bug out. I only use 308's and always my FAL's. Can inchange parts, mags and all use the same ammo. The last thing I want to worry about when under a threat situation is if I grabbed the right rifle and ammo.

[jerrymrc]

a small statured female can handle an m1 m1a and a fal if she has the will.

i really just wanted to see what my survivaholic number is.

As many know my wife is 4'11" and now about 110 lbs. She has a back injury that after firing about 20 rds or so of .308 she is like (thats enough) it is not the recoil but the twisting that gets her.

Now that said she would and could shoot the .308 all day if she had to. She does shoot it to stay proficient with it but we have found a better way to keep her shooting. She has a SAR-3 and a Fal in 7.62x25. and if push came to shove she will shoot the "pussycat" all day.

The "pussycat" is a PSL. That 7.62X54r in the PSL is something she can take all day. Sometimes it is not the round but the way you deliver it. BTW none of you want to be 6-700 yards out when she pulls the trigger.........

[SwampFox320]

Perhaps this is showing my lack of knowledge, but in a SHTF situation you won't be going up against seasoned troops or troops of any type. I'm of the thinking that if people are closing in on your local and you put a few rounds down range, they're gonna break and run. Hit one of them, hell, I bet hit one of the looters in the leg with a M1 carbine at 50 yards they'll scream and run with their bruised leg, lol! FALs are cool, a friend of mine has both a FAL and an AR (which I want!) and I would like to have one and I'm saving for a AR. But I feel pretty confident with my Garand, as someone said, 500,000 dead Axis soldiers can't be wrong. Easy to handle, easy to take apart and acurate.

Anyway, forgot where I'm going with this but looters are balless so I feel they'd break no matter what and if they don't an AR will take care of them...

Jason

[S.B.]

These are great for survival. Light, accurate, and you can carry a lot of ammo, as stated above.

[witchdoctor]

But I feel pretty confident with my Garand, as someone said, 500,000 dead Axis soldiers can't be wrong. Easy to handle, easy to take apart and acurate.
Jason

The M1 Garand is probably the most reliable battle rifle ever developed, of the semi-auto flavor. I would love to own one in .308 for my own SHTF needs. A skilled Garand shooter can put more rounds down range and more accurately than most AR / AK / FAL users. And ask a European Theater Vet about CQB with a M1 Garand! :)

As for the ubiquitous AR, why would you consider this as your primary bug-out rifle. As almost everyone has said, you can carry more ammo, but you will need more ammo. I have my M4 set for an on the road gun. While I am driving it is much easier to use from inside a vehicle. For a mounted weapon it is good, better than trying to whip a FAL around. As for on the run cross country, I would prefer a bolt .308 and a FAL / M1A so I would be able to meet any threat before it met me.

[MdlMkr 7.62]

On the battlefields of the world .30 has proven itself time and again. Even contractors in Iraq prefer a 7.63 x 39 AK to a .223 AR

Physical limitations are a consideration for some folks and I'd rather have a AR in a gunfight than a Swiss army knife but .308 is the standard by which other rounds are judged.

Even our military is bringing the .308 M14 out of mothballs to use it in Iraq because the .223 is a marginal stopper.

[Thunderchief]

My situation is that I live on the edge of a National Forest and between two large cities. I cannot "bug out" nor would I want to. If things get too hairy at the house I might have the family and neighbors slip in the forest for a few days then move back to what is left. Life long illness(s) prevent myself from going very far.:(

In my case I own a British L1A1 that has a Metric lower. So I am covered in the "medium-to-long" ranges. If people get closer than that is what a pistol is for.

[Clayman]

I look at my gun safe like a toolbox. If I want to drive a nail I use a hammer not a screw driver. If I want to shoot 500 yards plus I’m taking my scoped bolt gun. If I’m taking my boys out for some plinking fun I take the 10/22. I would hate to think I wouldn’t have my toolbox to pick the right tool for the job.

That said I have several FALs and I love them all. I shoot them every chance I get and have even used one in a service rifle competition and finished middle of the pack using surplus Port ammo. I have recently fallen in love with my POF gas piston upper AR and can see it has some definite advantages over the FAL. All of the advantages have been covered already: Weight, sights/optics, ammunition capacity and human engineering. All of these are valid.

The biggest shortcoming of the AR is caliber. The disadvantage of the smaller bullet can be offset quite a bit by selecting the right ammunition and keeping ranges against soft targets to less than 200 yards. That’s no problem for me where I live because there are too many trees and hills for many 500 yard shots. 150 yards is the realistic maximum unless you are on a farm.

I really like the weight and handling characteristics of the AR. I wouldn’t feel unprepared in any way shape or form if I had this rifle and nothing else as long as I had my choice of ammo. It’s reliable, easy to clean and shoots decent groups.

Given the choice though I’d still grab one of my FALs first. The FAL is heavier, has worse sights, isn’t nearly as handy as the AR (or AK) and has a smaller magazine to boot. So what gives?

Well, it's simple. I don’t want to live with the ammo limitations. It’s that important to me, and I get along with the FAL better than any other MBR. I might not have choice of the right ammo for the right situation all the time with an AR. Fumbling around for the magazine I loaded with the ballistic tip or AP ammo is not an option. With the FAL I can do everything I’d ask a rifle to do in a SHTF situation with surplus FMJ ammo.

I have some specialized rounds for the 308 but I don’t need them. I still like the AR though and I'm not selling mine. The wife likes her M1 carbine and my sons both like their AKs better. Whatever works.

[witchdoctor]

We have beaten down the 5.56 AR weapon system.:rolleyes:

NOW... how about an AR in 6.8 or 6.5 caliber???:confused:

I am considering an upgrade to the 6.8SPC after much discussion with my friend. It is not a priority, but something I would like to do if money allows in the future.

[paramudduck]

You mean like using the .280 (7x43) the Brits were pushing years ago?
Nice rounds. Just in my opinion the weapon it self is too finicky.

Every one forgets the lesson the Germans learned in Russia. To tighter tolerences and too smaller/many parts don't like the mud/dust/crud of the real world.

[Clayman]

We have beaten down the 5.56 AR weapon system.:rolleyes:

NOW... how about an AR in 6.8 or 6.5 caliber???:confused:

I am considering an upgrade to the 6.8SPC after much discussion with my friend. It is not a priority, but something I would like to do if money allows in the future.

I hope I didn’t come across as “beating down” the AR weapon system. It’s a viable choice for a lot of folks for a lot of reasons. At close range against soft targets it might even be preferable in a lot of situations. There are just too many variables to any set of situations to call one weapon or caliber “the best” for everything. If there were one “best” rifle and cartridge we’d all be using it. It’s all about your level of comfort, not what some dude (like myself) might say on a message board.

As to the caliber change issue, there are a lot of things to consider.

Both the 6.8 and 6.5 have ballistic advantages over the .223 in some situations but there are always trade offs. Going with either is going to increase ammo weight and cost while reducing availability and commonality between other members of your family or group as compared to the .223. There is reduced magazine capacity on both as well but that may not be a huge factor to you.

If you have a lot of cash, plan on bugging in and will primarily be working alone it might be an option. Otherwise I’d just look at the 6.5 or 6.8 as just another upper to put on an existing AR to play with and shoot from time to time but not my primary weapon. Just my two cents.

[SealTeamSix]

I would much rather bug out than in. Bug in means the war better end fast or I have resupply and or relief coming. Like that one dude said about the UH-60's coming in bringing you ammo. If you're bugging out weight and ammo count are gonna be a HUGE factor in your survivablity. You need ammo for just about everything your gonna need to survive. If you could only carry 8lbs total in ammo that would mean that you could survive in the wild for whatever 120 bullets will last you with a .30 round. Where as someone with an AR could carry 300??. or someone with a .22 could carry 1000?? give me the .22. Every firearm is only as accurate as the person shooting it. A old man worker in a gun store told me one time "It doesn't matter the size of the gun, long as you hit'm in the head they'll go down." Just hit'm in the head and you could hit 300 instead of 120... food for thought. forget about shooting anything farther than 3 to 4 hundred meters out anyways. You're shooting at people not animals. People are not gonna snipe you if they don't have too they'll be trying to survive too. Think 300 and In. They won't be out to kill you, unless they feel they need to. Which practically eliminates the need to snipe you. They're only trying to protect themselves too. Plus have you ever shot at a 300 meter moving target? one that speeds up slows down and jumps for cover? Good luck with that shot...lol most people can't hit the one standing still. lol In case you couldn't tell already I'm an AR fan.

[MerKWorK]

AR is a good choice for many reasons. Abundance of ammo and parts that could be found on gun store shelves. Very accurate and decent enough ballistics. Light and familiar. I like the idea of a piston driven AR over a direct gas impingement however. Might as well have it run cleaner and cooler!

[falnovice]

Wow, Holy Nercomantic Thread Batman!!!!

Dead for 18 months wasn't dead enough.

FYI, my money is on Bugging In, and a .308 defensive rifle. But then again, I am in the willy-whacks to begin with.

To those making comments about "choppers resupplying" I got a quick question: Where exactly do you think you are going to get resupplied while bugging out? From the stores? The stores that prehaps several hundred thousand other people are going to be thinking about?
There may be a lot of spare parts right now, but I doubt there will be so much as a spare tootsie-roll thirty days after SHTF.

[MerKWorK]

FALnovice... I do agree finding parts is not going to be like sunday shopping, however, how many FAL parts are floating around your local gun shop compared to AR's. Anyway... I think a good point is being brought up here, no one should own a gun that should need parts. To further the point, every one has the idea of what works best for them and what has worked for them in their experience. Shit does happen though and that is worth mentioning. Stick with what you know, sure makes for a great debate...
Almost forgot, bugging out or in....Out is for when in runs dry. Stock up and stay till there is no more choice, then start plan BUG OUT!

[falnovice]

however, how many FAL parts are floating around your local gun shop compared to AR's.

Absolutely! Not even a contest. However, if parts are a concern then they are easy and cheap enough to lay in a supply now.

Anyway... I think a good point is being brought up here, no one should own a gun that should need parts
Absolutely once again, though I think this (the need for all these spare parts) is often overstated. Same thing with car parts. I have read many people talk about getting a pre-computer SHTF vehicle, spending money to rebuild/restore it, and then larder a supply of all of these spare parts. My question to them is always the same:
How much gas have you got?
Seriously, I mean does it make a lot of sense to have enough parts on hand to keep your car running for the next 100,000 miles if you only have 500 gallons of gas stored? (Note, I have never personally met ANYONE who actually had more than a couple hundred gallons in storage). IF your drving that old restored Power Wagon you'll only get about 9,000 miles on that five hundred gallons.........do you really think you'll need that piston kit?
Same arguement for gun parts. How much ammo you got? Couple thousand rounds? Forget the parts, buy more ammo....unless you have no food in which case you need to re-evaluate.

I suspect the rotting stench of the dead will overpower me before I run out of ammo, or have to break into a parts kit.

FAL

[MerKWorK]

I like the way you think...:D