Bug out time???

[delectric]

Assuming you are not on your retreat 24/7, and likely as many of us have to work where the work is and thus live in the city or suburbs.... if you were informed right NOW, how long would it take you to affect a complete bug out, break it down this way

TIME TO GET HOME....
TIME TO LOAD...
TIME TO DRIVE TO RETREAT SITE...
TIME TO PLACE RETREAT INTO OPERATION

[Dr. X]

I'm one of the lucky ones who lives on my retreat 24/7/365 and if I do have to bug out, National Forest is right across the road...

as ever,
Dr. X

[akfanatic]

TIME TO GET HOME....
about 15 min.

TIME TO LOAD...
shit is by the door. back to the car in less than 2min.

TIME TO DRIVE TO RETREAT SITE...
30min or so...

TIME TO PLACE RETREAT INTO OPERATION
can put rounds down range upon arrival.

[Ryder]

I'm usually about a hour away from home during work. Good thing is that I'm driving a diesel, bad thing is I'm in the 4th largest city in the USA

Sadly it would take me too much time to get all my wanted stuff loaded at home to be able to take it all.

Then about 3-4 hours drive to get to the retreat.

[BRONZE]

well for me its 50 minutes to home with no traffic. If everybody knew about a shtf event it would take me hours to get home. one reason I don't like to let the gas tank go below 1/2.

I live at my reteat...bug'en in.

[FN74]

Ditto for me, I'm bugging in if necessary. In a year or two that may change with the addition of a new retreat.

[witchdoctor]

I am going to have to get home on the interstate or a long way around via back roads, which may be safer. That will take between 30-50min depending on traffic and route. Once home hike up to the 3rd floor of my apt building. Then call AKFantic and confirm locations and events!!! :eek: Loading up will depend on how much stuff I need and what is going on. Total load up including changing clothes and gearing up myself about 20-30min at the MOST!!! To bug-out location #1 about 45min depending on routing and traffic. Bug-out location #2 and #3 would take several hours, I would say 3 and 4 hours respectively. I really do need to get multiple routes planned out to each. Also I do not have the luxury of being able to pull my vehicle to my door and I have no help to load up.

[Oklahoma Joe]

I have a Family that consist of my wife,4 kids and myself. That said, I only plan to bug out if I have to. In the event I have to my total time to get home,loaded and rolling is less than 45 minutes. My drive time however will be about 7 hours (plenty of weapons and ammo for the ride ;) ).
The up side to the drive time is that where I am and where I am going is open country so I will not have to contend with City traffic. I am pretty sure I can be well on my way before most are ready to pull out for the open road. All I know for sure is that once I get where I am going I will feel more than secure knowing my family is safe.
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_bike_is_quicker_kawasaki_zx_-14_or_suzuki_hayabusa)

[gunsmoke]

I work at home, so I'll bug-in for all but the most serious situations where infrastructure may be at risk.

All my rolling gear is bagged up and just inside the garage, taking my time, I can load everything in 20-30 minutes but all of this is really luxury, the essentials are all already in the truck so I can roll in any direction anytime, survival is really all about having options.

I never let the truck get below 3/4s of a tank, and I'm prepared to scrounge trash gas along the way. My retreat is one hour away from home in heavy traffic and well less than 1/4 tank of gas away.

Once I get there there is nothing to do but secure my truck in the garage, open the gun safe, fix a snack turn on the tv and watch the world fall into the abyss

[TheOtherChris]

I live and work in a very small town in the mountains of Idaho.
The town has a small hydro-electric plant, LARGE spring fed water supply and adequate hospital facilities. Economy is agricultural based and so far from anything that could be considered a target as to be laughable.

I'm not going anywhere.:D

[Jonas Parker]

... My drive time however will be about 7 hours (plenty of weapons and ammo for the ride ;) ).
The up side to the drive time is that where I am and where I am going is open country so I will not have to contend with City traffic...

Good point about "plenty of ammo". If you're bugging out along a back-country road and just over the hill you come upon a roadblock of a couple of fallen trees manned by Bubba Redneck and six drooling inbred cousins, then what? Shoot? Punt? Marry a cousin?

Seems to me that "deserted, back-country roads" may not be the safest roads at this time.

[witchdoctor]

In my opinion it is time to slam the tranny into R and hammer down... If that does not work... shooting sounds like a solid plan to me.

[akfanatic]

In my opinion it is time to slam the tranny into R and hammer down... If that does not work... shooting sounds like a solid plan to me.

"Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys"
-Jeff Cooper
fm "The Art of the Rifle"

[akfanatic]

shooting sounds like a solid plan to me

Ditto. :D

[Dr. X]

If you're bugging out along a back-country road and just over the hill you come upon a roadblock of a couple of fallen trees manned by Bubba Redneck and six drooling inbred cousins, then what?

Okie IS Bubba Redneck, and with HIM riled up, who needs the cousins? :D

as ever,
Dr. X

[deltaten]

I'm upwind of any evil mushroom clouds emanating from Balto or D.C. ; so's I'm SiP'n. TMI is only a few air-miles off...but that damm'd thing don't work right anywho! ;)
IN the heart of PA's Amish country, what would I have need of, that I couldn't get locally??

Bomb me back into the 18th Century?? Hell ; I "live" in it :D
Paul

[Dr. X]

Bomb me back into the 18th Century?? Hell ; I "live" in it...

Unlike most people, Paul, you'll be less affected by culture shock. I live pretty close to the bone myself and prefer it that way...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[Oklahoma Joe]

Good point about "plenty of ammo". If you're bugging out along a back-country road and just over the hill you come upon a roadblock of a couple of fallen trees manned by Bubba Redneck and six drooling inbred cousins, then what? Shoot? Punt? Marry a cousin?

Seems to me that "deserted, back-country roads" may not be the safest roads at this time.


Not real sure as we are an anti-inbreeding State. Tell me what to look for so I will know!:p Seriously though, Doc knows me pretty well and has pretty much answered for me. I do not have an ounce of quit or give in my blood. 6 or 60 I would do what comes natural to me! I grew up a fighter. I don't see no sense in changing now! Besides, chances are they have no heart and will break over like a double barrel at the sound of the first shot. There are two types in this world. those that have the will and ambition to survive and those that think they do. I know which one I am.;)

Okie out!
________
Aerospaced Grinder (http://vaporizer.org)

[HiroProX]

Good point about "plenty of ammo". If you're bugging out along a back-country road and just over the hill you come upon a roadblock of a couple of fallen trees manned by Bubba Redneck and six drooling inbred cousins, then what? Shoot? Punt? Marry a cousin?

Seems to me that "deserted, back-country roads" may not be the safest roads at this time.

Well, if the choice is regulars with Bradley on the main roads, or the risk of Bubba Inbred & Clan, I'd choose Bubba Inbred. At least he doesn't have an armored vehicle and a 25mm autocannon.

Besides, I won't be alone.

[Dr. X]

Well, if the choice is regulars with Bradley on the main roads, or the risk of Bubba Inbred & Clan, I'd choose Bubba Inbred. At least he doesn't have an armored vehicle and a 25mm autocannon...

You don't know Okie...:cool: He'd be liable to have some kinda gawdawful rig setup in the bed of that tonner Ford of his...

as ever,
Dr. X

[SmokeEater2]

Well,since I live in the sticks anyway I'm buggin' in. Besides,I've got PLENTY of food and FAL chow,Chickens,geese(those noisey bastages are finally gonna' be good for something ;) ) and a pond full of catfish so I'm good for awhile.

[MdlMkr 7.62]

I live in S.E. Michigan. Where the heck could I bug out to? I'm staying put if I can

[Jonas Parker]

I live in S.E. Michigan. Where the heck could I bug out to? I'm staying put if I can

Bug out to SW Michigan, or head north along Lake Huron. SE Michigan (Detroit) is gonna be hell on wheels (or off wheels once the gasoline supply is used up). You could also head south into Ohio around Fostoria or some of the other small towns.

[MdlMkr 7.62]

We live over 1 hour north of "Murder city USA". I figure if something does happen the rats will "abandon ship" and head north to where we are.

Detroit has the largest population of Arabs in the USA

[crusty]

Time to home15 minutes to 1 hour
Time to load 15- 30 minutes
Drive time 2 hours regular route 5 hours or less by back (dirt ) roads.
Most gear at brothers house in the boonies.

[archy]

TIME TO GET HOME....

About 5 minutes from where I'm at right this instant. But in the event that wasn't prudent, the truck has a near-full tank, two jerrycans and two spares, 3 weeks worth of food, my L1A1 and a bit under a thousand rounds, and eight full mags. I've got a couple of variations of 2-way radios, and best of all, I know where I'd be heading and where I might stop on the way. And most of those around me know how they'd get there. And if I had to go afoot, it'd only be about 15 minutes.

TIME TO LOAD...

Oh, if I was to truck up everything that'd be nice to have, but not essential? 'Bout 15, 20 minutes. Hardest thing to load by myself: the four 30-gallon drums, three of which have gasoline for the truck, and one which does not.

That's in process of change, as I'm working on a motorbike as the vehicular backup, to be carried aboard, and a Diesel-powered truck that'll offer the multiple blessings of larger capacity, better fuel economy, and better offroad capability.

TIME TO DRIVE TO RETREAT SITE...

About a day, given decent weather, not the case at present [snow there.] One refueling stop en-route required.


TIME TO PLACE RETREAT INTO OPERATION[/QUOTE]

The *buildings* on site are the Homestead Act soddy my grandfather built in 1925, plus a 20-foot cargo container, kept *mostly* empty that I emplaced there two years ago. Housekeeping would have to be set up, initially meaning emptying the vehicle. A 6- 8 hour shift would do it, in the dfaylight.

Eventually, some material stored off-site would want to be picked up and returned to service there. Call it a weekend project.

Four people could operate the place and reasonably maintain securitry, round the clock; Granddad picked his site well. Six would be better.

[lew]

Well, I'm away at school, so I'd be bugging out of here and heading home, which is exactly two hours away. I can have all of my stuff sans furniture in my truck in less than twenty minutes. I could even leave a bunch of stuff here, as most of it is non-essential.

I know all of the back roads leading home, so traffic shouldn't be a problem and my truck always has a half tank of gas or more. That gives me at least 200 miles worth of gas.

[Clayman]

I have a legitimate question for folks. This is not meant as a flame in any way.

Do you honestly think that a plan of bugging out that involves hours of driving is realistic?

If we face any real SHTF incident the roads will not just be packed, they will be stop (at least the ones leading away from trouble). One accident could compound problems to the point where a vehicle becomes almost useless except as an emergency shelter. Remember the pictures of the Hurricane evacuees? It took some people 6-7 hours or more to travel a couple of miles.

My bug in location is not perfect but will most likely have to do for the duration of any immediate problem. If things stay bad plans will have to adjust. Even then I’m not sure how much I’m willing to stake on being able to use vehicles or the roads. It might be the absolute worst place to be.

[martin35]

Having considered the topic I have concluded I have nothing to bug out from, nor can I conceive of such, being in another place wont prolong my longevity for any good purpose, where I am sitting is where my fortune resides. Runnin makes me tired, I can get as pissed in one place as another.

[witchdoctor]

Having considered the topic I have concluded I have nothing to bug out from, nor can I conceive of such, being in another place wont prolong my longevity for any good purpose

I have to strongly disagree with your conclusion; grant it I do not know your exact location and AO. I do not have the luxury of dedicated bug-out location. I have a few relatives that live in very remote parts of the mountains and will probably head there if things get that bad. As for where I live now, it is not the kind of place I would like to stay. Yes I can make it here for a week or more if I have to bug-in due to weather or for some other unforeseen reason. I would much rather try my hand at living in the sticks than in the "burbs".

As for bug out via the road way, well I would hope that like others on here I would have some inclination that it was time to ago before the sheeple make for the hills. Also, I do not like to use the main roads anyway, I like to travel via Routes and State Highways. The more ways you know to get somewhere, especially your bug-out location, the better. I can get to my parents house from mine in about 5 different ways without looking at the map. That is a 30min drive, give or take. Since I have only lived at my current location about 6 months I have noted a serious problem. I cannot bug out south or west (preferred direction) with out passing over a major river. This means a limited number of crossing points on major roads. I am working find new routes and head north is the current plan.

As for when to bug out, that depends on where and what is happening. Hopefully nothing will ever arise that will make me implement my plans and use my gear. I keep a good eye on what is going on around me and in the world. The odds are a terrorist attack will never hit my economically depressed little town, but who knows. There are much larger and more enticing targets to the south and northeast. If something happens south of me there will be an immediate influx of people to my AO which means I may have to bug-out.

[adobewalls]

Hi guys, first post here, saw the link from FAL FILES.

On bugging out the lessons I learned from Katrina/Rita were the bug-out has to occur before the panic sets in. We who lived on the west side of Houston were supposed to be the last ones to evacuate.

Well guess what happened when people started seeing the first of the coastal evacuees roll by? Everyone else decided they were going too. People hit the access ramps all at the same time causing traffic flow to stop dead. I am talking hours to go one mile type of stuff.

Top that off with the fact that wthin a couple of hours of the start of the evacuation, there was no more gas, groceries or water to be had. It was an eye-opening experience.

[Carters Cavalry]

Before making bugging out the foundation of your plans, consider the wisdom of this article.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/backpackfever.htm

/r


Assuming you are not on your retreat 24/7, and likely as many of us have to work where the work is and thus live in the city or suburbs.... if you were informed right NOW, how long would it take you to affect a complete bug out, break it down this way

TIME TO GET HOME....
TIME TO LOAD...
TIME TO DRIVE TO RETREAT SITE...
TIME TO PLACE RETREAT INTO OPERATION

[NineseveN]

TIME TO GET HOME....(I work 300 feet from my door) -2 Minutes

TIME TO LOAD... (both the XO and I are already loaded up 15 feet from the door with another load in the SUV -even if we snatched some extra food and water/beverages to stick into the SUV, we'd be out the door licketly split) - 10 minutes

TIME TO DRIVE TO RETREAT SITE... (site 1 = 15 minutes worst case scenario /// site 2 = 15 minutes worst case /// site 3 = 30 minutes /// site 4 = 1 hour /// site 5 = 3 hours)

TIME TO PLACE RETREAT INTO OPERATION (all set up and running in 30 minutes for shelter - with about a 5 mile hike into the thick if we really want to be concealed - completely situated in 2-4 hours depending on weather, scenario and how far we feel the need to hike/hide)

[NineseveN]

Before making bugging out the foundation of your plans, consider the wisdom of this article.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/backpackfever.htm

/r


That article is so full of crapola it's almost astounding. If I didn't read it on the internet, I wouldn't have believed that someone actually wrote it.

*BACKPACK SURVIVAL*
By: DUNCAN LONG
1989
This file may be downloaded and distribuded as BACKPACK FEVER or BACKPACK SURVIVAL
Copyright (C) Duncan Long 1989. All rights reserved.
There's a lot of confusion about what survival means. To some, it's getting through the aftermath of an airplane wreck in a desolate area. It can mean knowing when to avoid walking in radioactive wastes. Or, it can mean knowing how to barter with troops in the aftermath of riots, war, and looting. To others, survival has to do with avoiding danger and knowing how to deal with it when it breaks into your home in the dead of night.
Survival ideas abound and there are as many definitions and strategies as there are survivalists. Some have good ideas for survival and some have unsound tactics. Bad ideas can mean extra work or trouble in everyday life; bad ideas during a survival situation get you killed. On-the-job training doesn't work when you're dealing with poison and gunfights. Or survival.

I included the header so I didn’t violate any copyright protections.



One of the most dangerous ideas--as far as I'm concerned--is that of "backpack survival."
A "back-pack survivalist" is a survivalist that plans on leaving his home ahead of a disaster and taking to the woods with only what he can carry out with him. He plans to survive through a strategy that is a sort of cross between the Boy-Scout-in-the-woods and Robinson Crusoe. The backpack survivalist plans on outrunning danger with a four-wheel drive or a motorcycle and hopes to travel light with a survival kit of everything he might need to cope with the unexpected. He hasn't cached anything in the area he's headed for because, chances are, he doesn't know where he's headed. Somehow, he hopes to overcome all odds with a minimum of supplies and a maximum of smarts. Certainly it is a noble cause; but it seems like one destined to failure. And that's not survival.

(Let's back up a minute. Backpack fever--or bug-outosis--does makes sense when you're facing a localized disaster like a derailed train with overturned poisonous gas cars. A a potential nuclear meltdown, an impending hurricane, or similar disasters where there is a safe place to run to. During such a time, it makes perfect sense to retreat and come back when things settle down. Likewise, some people have to work in dangerous areas. For them, donning a backpack and heading for a retreat that they've prepared before hand is a viable survival strategy. These people aren't backpack survivalists.)

Okay, where to start? First of all, this section of text makes a lot of ignorant and arrogant assumptions, which is usually the mark of someone talking out of the wrong end of their anatomy.

When he makes the comment, “He hasn't cached anything in the area he's headed for because, chances are, he doesn't know where he's headed.”, he fails to acknowledge that this is actually one of the strengths of donning a pack and using your skills out in the wild. First of all, caching supplies is really a fool’s gamble unless your loaded like Donald Trump and can afford to build a secure storage center in 10 or more prime locations that you can be sure no one will ever find or be able to get into. There’s just no one area or location that is impervious to every single disaster scenario. The mountains you might have cached your stash in is likely to be hit harder than ground level if a prolonged blizzard or nasty storm hammers your state, and rough areas with that kind of elevation are some of the most dangerous places to ever find yourself if the weather is kicking the earth into submission; how are your supply caching efforts looking then? And putting your stash in a storage locker at Bob’s Safe-Storage is going to seem rather silly when the hurricane or tornado wipes that little pot of safe-keeping completely from the landscape, not to mention the problems that might arise from flooding if the area is geographically ripe to become a bathtub (i.e. near a damn or flood-prone river or waterway, not on elevated grounds, on a flood plain, in a big hole below sea level etc…). That prime forest area that you hid your stash in, how’s it looking when a forest fire comes along and wipes the entire area out? Regardless, even if the area is safe from any potential disaster, no matter how clever you think you are, there’s always a chance that while your stash sits for 4-5 years that someone or something will discover it, damage it or render it useless.

I had a friend that hid a decent cache of food, water and various other survival supplies in a remote area of forest, only to find out years later that the area was bulldozed and excavated to build a road through the prime forest he chose. It was a great spot, remote, tough to get to, not well traveled (if at all), except that road thing that no one bothered to include him in on the memo about.

The whole point of reducing your needs into a pack or two is that you can go mobile if you need to, or stay put if you have to and still live out of the same pack/packs at a minimum...anything you can scrounge aside from that is a bonus.

If, and only if you've planned ahead and done some bug-out type retreats, you can survive so long as you can find water, gather food and build shelter. Survival isn't about comfort; a comfortable bug-out is a vacation, that's not what you're preparing for.



Let me make a confession. Yes, I once was a closet backpack survivalist. I had an ALICE pack and had it packed with all I could carry. As I learned more about how to survive, I realized I needed to carry more. Soon I discover- ed that, just for my family to survive for a very few days, I'd need a pack mule and/or a hernia operation... Something was very wrong.

Probably most beginner survivalists start out the same way. Things are bad so let's bug out. Backpack survivalism is an effort to deal with the possibility of a major disaster. As backpack survivalists, we make elaborate plans centered around the idea of "bugging out" of the area we live in. We hope to travel to an area that is safer than the one we're in and plan on living off the land or on some survival supplies we've hidden in the area. On the home front, we carefully prepare a stock of supplies that we can quickly cart off in a car or van when things start to look bad.

As more and more plans are made and as ever more survival gear is purchased, the survivalist realizes just how much he needs to cope with in order to survive. If he is any sort of realist, he soon amasses enough gear to warrant a truck or--more likely--a moving van just for carrying the survival equipment. (And don't laugh, there are survivalists who have large trucks for just such use.)

Some brave souls continue to make more elaborate plans and some of these survivalists may be able to pull off their plans. Those who have really thought things out and have spared no expenses may manage to survive with a bug-out strategy. But I think there are more logical--and less expensive--ways to survive a large crisis.

The above reads like the writer became way too dependent on gear. Plenty of hikers manage to survive a week or more with only what they can gather and carry in on their backs. These people aren’t superhuman, they're not myth or fantasy, and just because Duncan Long couldn't figure out how to do it without becoming so dependant on gear that he needed a truck to carry it all doesn't mean that it can't be done by making smart choices and learning the skills needed beforehand without impeding doom being the end result of the experiment. Will it be fun and comfortable? Only if you're insane, but if it were enjoyable, we wouldn’t be calling it "survival", we'd be calling it a "recreational outing".

And if you need a pack mule or a hernia operation to survive only a few days, you're doing just about everything wrong. The pack you choose and how you load it (there is a skill involved in this) greatly determines how much weight you can carry and for how long. Your choice in footwear determines how long and far you can walk and over what terrain. Your clothing determines whether or not you'll need to pack a veritable suitcase full of clothes in order to survive through various weather conditions or stop to rig a clothesline to let your pants dry for 5 hours in the sun after it rains. Your choice in foods greatly determines the weight and effectiveness of your pack (here's a hint, don't bring canned goods, using only dry foods increases your need to pack more water, not selecting foods that give energy or necessary vitamins and minerals is a bad idea etc...).

Aside from that, there are ways to port around extra gear outside of your pack if you truly need to. In the snow, a plastic sled filled with food and cold-weather gear pulled by some rope will get you there and back without too much trouble. A game cart or deer sled can allow one to carry more than they can on their backs alone without too much trouble in the woods, hunters do this all the time. Will it be easy? Nope, but again, we're not talking about going on vacation. The real question is, will it work for you if you work on it? The answer is yes.

Form there he goes on to ramble about topics ranging from nuclear war to armed invasion or conflict, which are not bug-out scenarios, they're more “the end of the world as we know it” (TEOTWAWKI) material. No one with any semblance of intelligence plans to survive nuclear winter in a backpack out in the woods. To insinuate that the two are directly related aside from using a bug out bag and strategy to get out of the immediately affected area if possible is nonsense.


Forget all your preconceived notions for a minute.
Imagine that there is a national emergency and you are an outside observer? What happens if a nuclear attack is eminent, an economic collapse has occurred, or a dictator has taken over and is ready to round up all malcontents (with survivalists at the top of the list)?

Situations change with time. The survivalist movement--and backpack fever--first started up when gas guzzler cars were about all that anyone drove. That meant that a survivalist with some spare gasoline could outdis- tance his unprepared peers and get to a retreat that was far from the maddening crowd, as it were. (Read some of Mel Tappan's early writing on survival retreats. His ideas are good but many have been undone with the new, fuel-efficient cars.)

With cars getting 30 or even 40 miles per gallon, it isn't rare for a car to be able to travel half way across a state on less than a tank of gasoline. The exodus from cities or trouble spots will be more limited by traffic snarls than lack of gasoline even if the gas stations are completely devoid of their liquid fuel.

Too, there are a lot of people thinking about what to do if the time for fleeing comes. A lot of people will be headed for the same spots. (Don't laugh that off, either. In my area, every eighth person has confided his secret retreat spot to me. And about half of them are all headed for the same spot: an old missile silo devoid of water and food. I suspect that the battle at the gates of the old missile base will rival the Little Big Horn.)

Picking a missile silo or other easily found and recognizable landmark is a stupid choice that I don't think anyone serious about survival would make. If the people Duncan Long knows are that stupid, well, that shouldn't color the rest of us with the same paint. We might as all run to the mall or WalMart and try and survive. Who's really planning to do something that foolish? Raise your hands and go sit in the corner.

No matter how out-of-the-way their destination, most survivalists are kidding themselves if they think others won't be headed for their hideaway spot along with them. There are few places in the US which aren't accessible to anyone with a little driving skill and a good map.

Too, there are few places which aren't in grave danger during a nuclear war, Pandemic, or national social unrest.

Though most nuclear war survival books can give you a nice little map showing likely targets, they don't tell you some essential information. Like what the purpose of the attack will be. The enemy may not be aiming for military targets that day; a blackmail threat might begin by hitting the heart of the farmland or a number of cities before demanding the surrender of the country being attacked. The target areas on the maps might be quite safe.

And the maps show where the missiles land IF they all enjoy 100 percent accuracy and reliability. Anyone know of such conditions in war? With Soviet machinery!? Targets may be relatively safe places to be in.

Added to this is the fact that some areas can be heavily contaminated or completely free of contamination depending on the wind directions in the upper atmosphere. Crystal ball in your survival gear?

But let's ignore all the facts thus far for a few moments and assume that a backpack survivalist has found an ideal retreat and is planning to go there in the event of a national disaster... What next?

His first concern should be that he'll have a hard time taking the supplies he needs with him. A nuclear war might mean that it will be impossible to grow food for at least a year and foraging is out as well since animals and plants may be contaminated extensively.
An economic collapse wouldn't be much better. It might discourage the raising of crops; no money, no sales except for the barter to keep a small farm family going. With large corporations doing much of our farming these days, it is not unreasonable to expect a major famine coming on the heals of an economic collapse. Raising food would be a good way to attract starving looters from miles around.

Ever try to pack a year's supply of food for a family into a small van or car? There isn't much room left over. But the backpack survivalist needs more than just food.

If he lives in a cold climate (or thinks there might be something to the nuclear winter theory) then he'll need some heavy clothing.

Rifles, medicine, ammunition, tools, and other supplies will also increase what he'll need to be taking or which he'll have to hide away at his retreat site.

Shelter? Building a place to live (in any style other than early-American caveman) takes time. If he builds a cabin beforehand, he may find it vandalized or occupied when he gets to his retreat; if he doesn't build it beforehand, he may have to live in his vehicle or a primitive shelter of some sort.

Thus, a major problem is to get a large enough vehicle to carry everything he needs as well as to live in.

None of this applies to a bug out aside from, again, using your kit to get out of the fire if you're in it, or keep moving away from it if it's coming towards you. No preparation aside from a hardened bunker stocked with food, water and fuel is going to survive a nuclear war; I haven't seen anyone in the survival community stating that their backpack protects them from radiation. National civil unrest? You’d need an army to survive that confrontation; you’re better off taking your chances in the woods.


History has shown that cities empty themselves without official evacuation orders when things look bad. It happened in WW II and has even happened in the US during approaching hurricanes, large urban fires, and nuclear reactor problems.

So there's a major problem of timing which the backpack survivalist must contend with. He has to be packed and ready to go with all members of his family at the precise moment he learns of the disaster! The warning he gets that warrants evacuating an area will have to be acted on quickly if he's to get out ahead of the major traffic snarls that will quickly develop. A spouse at work or shopping or kids across town at school means he'll either have to leave them behind or be trapped in the area he's in. A choice not worth having to make.

Unless he's got a hot-line from the White House, the backpack survivalist will not hear the bad news much ahead of everyone else. If he doesn't act immediately, he'll be trapped out on the road and get a first-hand idea of what grid-lock is like if he's in an urban area. Even out on the open road, far away from a city, an interstate can become hectic following a ballgame... Imagine what it would be like if everyone were driving for their lives, some cars were running out of fuel (and the occupants trying to stop someone for a ride), and the traffic laws were being totally ignored while the highway patrol tried to escape along with everyone else. Just trying to get off or on major highways might become impossible. If things bog down, how long can the backpack survivalist keep those around from helping to unload his truck-load of supplies that they'll be in bad need of?

Telling them they should have prepared ahead of time won't get many sympathetic words.
Even on lightly-traveled roadways, how safe would it be to drive around in a vehicle loaded with supplies? Our backpack survivalist will need to defend himself.


History also shows that the vast majority of people do not recognize the warning signs or heed the warnings that come to them and eventually, the masses get stuck right in the middle of the event. If you wait until it’s so obvious that everyone is trying to get out, you’ve done it all wrong.

Those that do make it out are generally prepared or smart and that doesn't bring about mass hordes of looters, that's what the people that didn't get out do. If you wait until it's too late, you're not really prepared, your just equipped; there's a difference. The majority of the people that made it out of Katrina before the big hit generally did fine, even if they weren't well prepared. Those who stuck around never really got to bug out so they're mostly irrelevant anyway, but I bet that anyone with preparations who was smart enough to head to dry land did okay, or at least better than they would have if they hinged their survival on stationary preps or help from a community that eventually went underwater.



But let's suppose that he's thought all this out. He has a large van, had the supplies loaded in it, managed to round every member of his family up beforehand, somehow got out of his area ahead of the mob, is armed to the teeth, and doesn't need to take an interstate route.
When he reaches his destination, his troubles are far from over.

The gridlock and traffic snarls won't stop everyone. People will slowly be coming out of heavily populated areas and most of them will have few supplies. They will have weapons (guns are one of the first things people grab in a crisis according to civil defense studies) and the evacuees will be desperate. How many pitched battles will the survivalist's family be able to endure? How much work--or even sleep--can he get when he's constantly on the lookout to repel those who may be trying to get a share of his supplies?

This smells of a little too much TV and not enough reality. This is what happens with those that stick around...how many gunfights did the folks that got out of Katrina ahead of time have to go through in order to live?


This assumes that he gets to where he's going ahead of everyone else. He might not though. If he has to travel for long, he may discover squatters on his land or find that some local person has staked out his retreat area for their own. There won't be any law to help out; what happens next? Since (according to military strategists) our backpack survivalist needs about three times as many people to take an area as to defend it, he will need to have some numbers with him and expect to suffer some casualties. Does that sound like a good way to survive?

What about the local people that don't try to take over his retreat before he gets there? Will they be glad to see another stranger move into the area to tax their limited supplies? Or will they be setting up roadblocks to turn people like the backpack survivalist away?

Again, he fails to take into account that pack survival doesn't marry one to any particular area, this is the main benefit of a Bug-out-Bag. If you're married to an area, you might as well save yourself from humping the weight and stash all of your supplies there ahead of time and hope in one hand...well, you know the rest. The pack survivalist is fluid and mobile, he can easily turn away from one place and head to another, and another, and another if he has the right supplies and a plan for those contingencies. If you've ever been in remote forest areas, you know that there's enough room for anyone that has the desire to make it that far, no one with a brain is thinking about bugging out to a 5-acre park.


But let's just imagine that somehow he's discovered a place that doesn't have a local population and where those fleeing cities aren't able to get to. What happens when he gets to his retreat? How good does he need to be at hunting and fishing? One reason mankind went into farming was that hunting and fishing don't supply enough food for a very large population nor do they work during times of drought or climatic disruption. What does he do when he runs out of ammunition or game? What happens if the streams become so contaminated that he can't safely eat what he catches? Can he stake out a large enough area to guarantee that he won't depleat it of game so that the next year is not barren of animals?

Farming? Unless he finds some unclaimed farm machinery and a handy storage tank of gasoline at his retreat, he'll hardly get off first base. Even primitive crop production requires a plow and work animals (or a lot of manpower) to pull the blade. No plow, no food for him or domestic animals.

And domestic animals don't grow on trees. Again, unless he just happens to find some cows waiting for him at his retreat, he'll be out of luck. (No one has packaged freeze-dried cows or chickens--at least, not in a form you can reconstitute into living things).
Intensive gardening? Maybe. But even that takes a lot of special tools, seeds, know-how, and good weather. Can he carry what he needs and have all the skills that can be developed only through experience?

Even if he did, he might not have any food to eat. Pestilence goes hand in hand with disasters. Our modern age has forgotten this. But during a time when chemical factories aren't churning out the insecticides and pest poisons we've come to rely on, our backpack survivalist should be prepared for waves of insects flooding into any garden he may create. How good is he at making insecticides? Even if he carries out a large quantity of chemicals to his retreat, how many growing seasons will they last?

Did he truck out a lot of gasoline and an electrical generator with him? No? Do you REALLY think he can create an alcohol still from scratch in the middle of no-where without tools or grain? Then he'd better write off communications, lighting, and all the niceties of the 20th Century after his year's supply of batteries wear out and his vehicle's supply of gasoline conks out.

I'm afraid we've only scratched the surface though. Thus far things have been going pretty well. What happens when things get really bad? How good is he at removing his spouse's appendix--without electric lights, pain killers, or antiseptic conditions? Campfire dental work, anyone?

How good is he at making ammunition? Clothing? Shoes?

I think you'll have to agree that this hardly seems like survival in style. Even if our backpack survivalist is able to live in the most spartan of conditions and has the know-how to create plenty out of the few scraps around him, he'll never have much of a life ahead of him.

Camping out is fun for a few days. Living in rags like a hunted animal doesn't sound like an existence to be aimed for.

Again, he's going from a simple bug out to TEOTWAWKI where entire societies will change. The pack gets you out; that's why we call them "bug out bags", not "live out of for all of eternity bags".

Now, don’t get me wrong, all of the skills that he listed are great skills to strive to have (common medical and dental operations, farming, fabrications etc…) and I see plenty of talk about those things in today’s survival communities, but you have to survive long enough and have a potent-enough disaster to need and use them. Nothing like that has happened in this country that I know of, and very rarely does it happen in others. But dangerous SHTF events that temporarily displace people and make areas uninhabitable happen all the time (hurricanes, earthquakes or riots for example), so that’s the baseline we should be preparing for because solo survival of a nuclear war is just about out of most folks reach without some serious help.

Now, at this point, as I'm reading through his examples that seem to situate around mass changes in the landscape and society like nuclear war (i.e. TEOTWAWKI), I was hoping he'd hit me with a good solution to all of this that I hadn't thought of, because I never once dreamed that I could live indefinitely out of my pack in the woods. And then I was sorely disappointed when I read on...



The bottom line with backpack fever is that, with any major disaster that isn't extremely localized, running is a panic reaction not a survival strategy. Running scared is seldom a good survival technique and backpack fever during any but a localized disaster (like a flood or chemical spill) looks like it would be a terminal disease with few, rare exceptions.
So what's the alternative?

A number of writers, from Kurt Saxon to Howard Ruff to Mel Tappan, have already suggested it but I think that it bears a retelling.

What they've said is this: get yourself situated in a small community that could get by without outside help if things came unglued nationally or internationally. Find a spot that allows you to live in the life-style you've grown accustomed to (and a community that allows you to carry on your livelihood) but which has the ability to grow its own food and protect its people from the unprepared (or looters) that might drift in from surrounding cities during a crisis. This spot has the ability to carry on trade within its borders and has a number of people who can supply specialized products or professional skills.

An area with two thousand to five thousand people in it along with a surrounding farm community would be ideal but sizes can vary a lot according to the climate and city. Ideally such a town would have its own power plant with a few small industries along with the usual smattering of doctors, dentists, and other professionals.

This type of community isn't rare in the US. It's quite common in almost every state. You could probably even take a little risk and commute into a city if you must keep your current job. (In such a case a reverse backpack survival strategy just might work--you'd be bugging out to your home.)

Western civilization stepped out of the dark ages when small communities started allowing people to specialize in various jobs. Rather than each many being his own artisan, farmer, doctor, carpenter, etc., men started learning to master one job they enjoyed doing. Each man become more efficient at doing a job and--through the magic of capitalism--western culture finally started upward again.

A small modern community like the one suggested above, when faced with a national economic collapse or the aftermath of a nuclear war, would eventually lift itself up the same way. It would give those who lived in it the same chance for specialization of work and the ability to carry on mutual trade, support, and protection. Such small communities will be the few light spots in a Neo-Dark Age.

Which place would you rather be: in a cave, wondering where the food for tomorrow would come from, or with a group of people living in their homes, working together to overcome their problems? Even the most individualistic of survivalists shouldn't find the choice too hard to make.

I don't know of any residential community that is impervious to nuclear blasts and radiation or an aggressive and/or invading army. This is the kind of stupid wanna-be wisdom that chaps my ass. The writer spends his time talking about how you can’t survive a nuclear war out of a backpack but then kindly offers up the suggestion that we all just run off and join a community, as if that'll save us. Here's a hint kids, nuclear war and fallout will kill you whether or not you’re in the woods with a backpack or on your porch in some gated-commune community full of self-sufficient survivalists. The only things that will save you from a nuclear blast and radiation is avoidance or protection via a properly designed and built bunker or radiation suit (for the latter anyway, a blast will still kill you in the suit). Nuclear winter will wipe out a community as fast as it will wipe you out in your tent, do yourselves a favor and don't be stupid. What happens when this utopia of a community is flooded out, or smack in the middle of a bad blizzard, hurricane or tornado or gets his with a heavy dose of fallout? Do you all bug out as a community? I hope you have some BoB's prepared...oh wait, we're right back where we started aren't we?

As for a community surviving a well-planned and equipped armed invasion, spare me. Too much Rambo, not enough Ramen. I don’t care if you dress up in fatigues and grab your AR-15, you’re not a soldier, and 100 of your buddies or neighbors doing the same does not an army or combat force make. You’d have to be a complete imbecile to think that any community aside from those situated on military bases could withstand a determined military assault without some serious manpower and serious planning. However, if a community that is trained and equipped to take on an army is ever built, let me know, I’d consider joining. Until then, this aspect of the argument is simply retarded.

Furthermore, people are nasty animals. When the chips are down, can you really count on your neighbor? Maybe, maybe not. Living with prepared individuals in a community is as much of a gamble as running into people hiding out in the woods. Being prepared does not remove the carnivorous nature of man; there are plenty of reasons for your fellow human being to screw you over and knife you when you're not paying attention that have absolutely nothing to do with survival. You better hope that you can handpick the folks in this community and that you choose well.

The thing is, ignorant people act like having a bug out bag means that you absolutely must but out, which is nonsense. I can live inside of my home with my bag easier than I can in the woods or the mountains...I can live in your home with it rather easily as well. 10 people could all hole up in one home with their bug out bags without much trouble and with less strain on the available resources than 10 people with no preps to bring with them. A whole community of people with the right skills could probably live quite well, provided the disaster doesn't come to them anyway. And if you have to bug out with a community, who's in charge? Can you guarantee there won't be a power struggle? Unless the people are all Borg survivalist with a hive-mind, there will be dissension, there will be people with alternate ideas and viewpoints, there will be squabbles and fighting because that's the nature of man and community doesn't remove that from the genes anymore than civilization as a whole does. When the chips are up it's easy for everyone to mind their manners...watch what they do when the chips are down though...if you're surprised, you haven't been paying attention.

Besides, who here has the disposable income to build a community like this or get in one if it even existed (they generally don't exist). Where is this community (no Front Sight jokes please)? Are you prepared to turn your community into a survival utopia? For most of us, that's about as realistic as surviving nuclear winter out of a backpack.

Be smart, have options. Have a plan to bug in and multiple plans to bug out. Have the skills to stay bugged out for a while, have a plan to get somewhere to eventually bug in if the event is small or medium scale. Don't marry yourself to one plan or location and realize that nothing short of a bunker and 2 years of food and water will enable you to survive a nuclear blast or nuclear winter. Radiation is less tricky depending on the proximity and prevailing winds, but don't just run off and bug out into radiation because you have a pack prepared, You can live out of a backpack in your home or someone else's, I promise (try it sometime). Just because you have a pack doesn’t mean you have to take it somewhere else for it to be useful.