religious catch 22

[MrGrey]

HI

I have a question and I'm looking for input. I have been thinking about this a long time.

My religious beliefs dictate that I should obey the laws of the land. I just don't run around willy nilly killing raping and looting and exceeding the speed limit, etc.

My religious ideas also dictate that Im very patriotic.

So where would I stand during the revolutionary war when only 30% of the population favored giving King george the boot. Do I support my country (at that time would be England) or do I stand up for freedom?

In the next revolution, (I fear one is coming) which side do I sign on to? When they outlaw one of my rifles, do I hand it over or does it go under ground or do I come out shooting?

I have a second amendment right to keep (that means own) and bear (that means carry on my person) arms and that my government will not infringe on those rights (which they have done at every chance). I do not have this right because of a piece of paper called the constitution but rather the constitution is a writen recognition of my God given right to defend my self including against my government. A free people are only free because they are armed. Not just with a slingshot but with at least as good a weapon as any army that may come up against them.

So when congress infringes on my God given rights do I join (or possible become the one who starts) the revolution? Do I go on a shooting spree of every congressman who votes to disarm me? Do I declare an open war?

If you were alive, during the boston tea party where would you be? tossing tea or calling the red coats? What would your religion dictate that you do? I don't care what religion you are exactly, but what are your peronal beliefs on this. I don't care if your catholic or methodest. I want to know what you would do and where you would stand and why. Have a scripture that you want to quote, go for it.

I have been raised to obey the law of the land. I question the laws of the land's value and degree of evil it seems to obtain.

I"m in no hurry to start killing vile congressmen but I seem to be stuck with some of the most disturbing power mad freaks called polititions. It seems that the main fucntion of a politition is to raise money for the next election.

Congress seems to be bent on infringing ever since 1936. They have not stopped or changed attitudes. We don't have the same people now that we had in 1936 but we still have the same attitude and tactics.

I"m finding it harder and harder to feel obligated to follow the rules as I have been taught by my faith.

Any thoughts?

[MdlMkr 7.62]

Seems like there's some tought things to ponder in your post. I can't help with your moral judgements - sorry. Have you talked wit your clergy about your feelings??? Maybe they can help with their guidance???

Best of luck on your moral dilemma

7.62

[funfaler]

Hey MrGrey,

You have touched upon a topic that has been discussed by many, in many eras, and I fear will become forefront in the near future. The Department of Homeland Security are getting ministers to get there people to submit to Martial Law and disarmament. http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987

Our Biblical concerns are not the same as the Founders of this nation.

If you read Romans 13, you see several things that the Founding Fathers saw, which justified their fight to end tyranny and set up a Liberty based government. When they set up our form of government, they eliminated many of the issues that they had to sort out for their defense of Liberty.

Allow me to go through some of the "non issues" of Romans 13, that they Founders have pre-decided for us. Please keep in mind that throughout the Bible, we are commanded to obey God over man, so any conflict in that area is easily handled. There are also many principles throughout the Bible for us to resist a tyrannical government. I will save those discussions for a later date, precisely because our Founding Fathers set this nation up in a way to keep us from having to deal with those issues.

Paul, in Romans, commands us to "submit himself to the governing authorities". So let us look at who or what is our 'governing authorities" are. This nation is a Constitutionally established, Representative Republic. So where did the "authority" come for the Founders to set this type of government? The Founders said the "authority" came from "The People"..."of the People, for the People, by the People" or the start of the Constitution itself.."We the People...". So, the "government of America is not an agency or even the three branches that you were taught about in school, the government is the People. All the branches and agencies are selected by the People, to do the job of administrating the desires of "We the People".

So, from the above perspective, to whom are we Biblically obligated to "submit" to? Well, all the branches and agencies swear an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution, so they are obligated to "submit" to the Constitution. We have agreed as a society to live within certain guidelines, that we call laws, however those laws are bound or have to 'submit" to the Constitution. So from all of this information, one can easily see that above all of the branches, agencies, and laws all must "submit" to the Constitution.

In your question, and in our world today, our Biblical obligation is to the Constitution. The Founders knew this to be the case, and planned the Constitution to be in "submission" to God and the Bible, they made it easy for you and I, to be in line with God's will as well as the Supreme law of the land. In your research and discussion on this issue, don't force yourself to "rediscover" what the Founders knew, if you wish to study what they went through on this matter, keep in mind that their situation was not the same as ours today.

So today, where do we stand. The simple answer is that any law that is within and submissive of the Constitution, we have an obligation to submit to (as long as it is not out of line with God, I can think of no case where that is possible). The long answer, and the "real" consideration for you and I, or perhaps the better question is, what do we do with a government that is out of bounds of the Constitution?

The good news is you are not commanded to start a Revolution or start shooting Congressmen. We have Constitutional means of dealing with folks that are acting outside of the bounds place upon them by the Constitution, through elections, courts, law, and civil disobedience.

The question that you seem to really be asking, is are there circumstances that you could justifiably, under the Bible, take up arms against the government you currently live under, the answer is Yes, and we have the Founding Fathers to thank for making that decision easy.

If, in the future, the agents that have sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution, stop doing so, and we have no further "Constitutionally established" remedies for such actions, we are justified by the Constitution AND the Bible to defend our Rights and ourselves, against any an all, regardless of what "title" the offenders hold. The Founders set it up this way, on purpose, and they did it like this to make our Biblical obligations easy to determine and submit to.

Here is a link to Pastor Chuck Baldwin's comments on the news story above and he does a good job of discussing this topic as well. http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin392.htm

[Bidah]

My word.. very well said indeed FunFaler.

Thank you very much.

-Bidah

[MrGrey]

I will continue to look in and see what else is added. Thanks to all for your contributions. I have been talking about it with clergy and some men I respect who have been involved in politics over the years. I will see what else I can gather.