What engagement range likely after SHTF

[BRONZE]

Well you guys like the 7.62 over the 5.56, so tell me this.

What do you think the most likely engagement range will be after SHTF.

100yds

300yds.

600yds.

35 yds. is the average police patrol rifle shot and 71 yds. is the average police sniper shot.

I think any contact over say a 100yds. I would evade.

[bsdmon]

i dont think you can compare average distance for police engagements to civilians in a post disaster period. because swat teams are going up to setup and planned out situations(even with many variables but time and place are usually set) and not just randomly running into them. police again more than not get into gun fights when approaching or pursuing a suspect and there for the enagements will always be close. now alot of people say the most common enagement distance is 100yrds. while this is probably true though i'd have to ask what kind of engagement if that's just military or police also included. this is how i figure it. on your daily commutes and such just analysis distance. walking down the street figure how far can i see down this road with my naked eye. after doing this i would not be suprised of enagements out to a couple 100 yards or possibly needing to stealthy do so at 500+yrds. this is why i prepare for distance. if you just look at common distances in open areas to me it just makes since. this would be nothing like what a police officer experiences.

[Dr. X]

In my AO there are steep, heavily wooded mountains. The only LONG shots a man would get around here are down in the river bottoms which aren't too close to my place. The longest shot I'd have to manage would be about 300 yards and I can do that with iron sights...

as ever,
Dr. X

[Gunseller]

It would depend on your area. It could be 50 yards or it could be 1000 yards. I go for what Uncle's people told me, "If they are walking away let them go and if they are walking towards you let them walk up real close they are easier to hit." Your rifle and your abilities would also make a differance.
Steve

[lew]

My area is heavily wooded, so long shots would be very rare. Besides, I don't plan on taking any offensive action, so close range shots would be much more likely.

[bsdmon]

yea all i know is if someone raises a muzzle in my direction someone is going to die.

[witchdoctor]

I am currently in the same delema and trying to figure out what to do. I have a 5.56mm and 7.62x39 with a 30-06 deer rifle as my long range weapon. I have to purchase a .308 of some type for my long range needs, but funds are limited so I have work with what I have.

I am thinking that in my AO I will have up to about 300yds engagments. Food gathering will be less than 100yds from my hunting experience in this area. I have looked at my area and buildings, parking lots, roadways, tree lines, stores, etc and determined that a 7.62x39 will work for now. I would like to upgrade to a M1A Scout Squad. My theory is escape and evade, but I will not run from a fight if I am encountered in short range.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

I'm not just concerned with ranges. I'm concerned with versatility. .22lr can kill just as good as a .338 WinMag with the right conditions. Penetration, range, and stopping power all factor in for me. If I can have one gun I want it to be the most versatile one that I can get. My personal experiences made me switch from the AR platform to the FAL platform. Selling 3 ARs and giving away my AR tools to make a custom FAL that fit my needs required some pretty powerful personal experiences on my part, that's alot of supporting kit to replace eg. mag pouches, ruptured case removers, cleaning kit, etc. I can give my experiences but those will be biased. Some facts:

147gr. ball, lead core 7.62x51mm ammo can penetrate a 3.45mm steel plate at 620m, and can penetrate 2 test building blocks(the testing report didn't specify the make up of the blocks, I'm guessing concrete cinder blocks)

62gr. semi-armor piercing with a steel penetrator(not readily found in the Sierra catalog) 5.56x45mm can penetrate a 3.45mm steel plate at 640m, and can not penetrate even one test building block.

Here is a good site that deals with penetration issues:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm

The 7.62 camp didn't start the whole "AR best for SHTF" thread, so don't get upset if we don't agree.

Take care,
Dave

[411man]

Great question !

The answer involves more than just the nature of the lay of the land, topography, structures, distances of same, flora, etc.

In a SHTF situation Tactical considerations will play a big part in how far away one decides to engage a target. This goes for preditors (two or four legged) and game.

Obviously one would avoid starting an engagement at great distances unless the situation require it. Why alert and draw hostiles to your location if they show no awareness or interest. Close in engagments help to guarantee surprise and victory over hostiles with a big reduction in friendly casualties.

Think about the need to remain unnoticed to survive becoming the target of hostile roving gangs. This is why engaging a hostile at 1000 yards most likely won't be a good idea. It might be appropriate but rarely.

As for game and four legged preditors, close range helps to ensure bagging the quarry and ensuring no one else gets to your game first.

[akfanatic]

Prep for CQB.

Hope for the best (SWS) but prepare for the worst.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

OK, maybe I got off on a tangent. In a SHTF situation it isn't like a military situation where you can have a definite set of rules of engagement. Most confrontations may have to be at "handshake" pistol ranges. Unless "baddies" decorated themselves with an ear necklace and drove around with severed heads hanging off their vehicles Mad Max style how would you know their intentions? Mere possession of a firearm doesn't imply hostile intent. Distance always favors the trained, so if you were holed up "bugging in" with no trespassing signs clearly around your property it may be prudent to lay down a warning shot to anyone not heading the clearly visible signs at less than the maximum range of your rifle so they didn't know the "safe" distance from you. If you were "bugging out" and happened into a confrontation again distance favors the trained, I would retreat and find another route since it is easier to defend than to make an offensive action, the cards are stacked against you. Upon my retreat I would look for places that were defensible and set for a little while to ensure that the original attackers didn't pursue, then use distance to my advantage if they did. Harassment on the retreat if you will.

To answer the question in short, I would try to manipulate my surroundings to give the maximum distance between myself and anyone trying to do me harm in order to capitalize on my training and my capabilities while denying them the ability to fix my position and deny my freedom of movement.

[bsdmon]

yea i wouldn't just shoot at anyone with a gun. again like i said if someone points their muzzle at me. someone is going to die. if they keep it at a low ready or in another position i wouldn't shoot. so when in shtf its a good idea to have binoculars instead of using your scope to look at someone at a distance. i would just think thats a decent rule of engagement. i mean yes you want to get with others to communicate. see what they can offer and what they know. but if they point their rifle in your direction, theres only so many reasons they'd be doing it. either a. they think you're hostile or b. they themselves are hostile. in a situation like that i wouldn't want to bet my life on which. i can kind of understand the warning shot but again. if you shoot in my direction i ain't taking it as any warning i'm taking that as an attempt on my life. maybe a shot in the air would be differnt as you could plainly see they arent pointing it at you. either way yea it'd probably be best to just stay inside of concealed as much as possible and have friends so you wouldn't have to worry about this so much. personally i'm more worried about someone shooting out of windows in the burbs here. because there's so many damn windows.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

Very good point with the warning shot and the use of binos. I think the key is that if you must talk to someone make yourself known(high visibility panel) a good distance off so you aren't seen as trying to "creep" on their position. This will hopefully establish that you don't have hostile intent and give you freedom to maneuver if things go south. I'm in the burbs also and I think night time is the right time, with noted underpasses and large culverts noted along the way to the wilderness for holing up.

[bsdmon]

now i just wonder what would be the best way to communicate at a distance. i could probably only understand someone at less than 100 yards. guess i could pack around a megaphone but that'd be a bad idea for attracting the "bad people"

[Goldenspurholderx2]

I would say visual contact at a long distance with a VS-17 panel(big day glo orange piece of fabric) close the distance by half and write a note with instructions like: Could we talk? If yes, then wave me in and we'll talk at this half way point. If no, then please make an "X" with your arms over your head and I'll move along. Make sure they see you leave the note, go back to the original point of visible contact and wait. There is always going to be risk involved.

[Dr. X]

guess i could pack around a megaphone but that'd be a bad idea for attracting the "bad people"

A megaphone?!!! You've been watching too much Ty Pennington...;) :p

as ever,
Dr. X

[SniperBait]

Five or six feet. Some skell will try to rob you. Most likely any other engagement will be decided by who sees who first.

[Dr. X]

any other engagement will be decided by who sees who first...

Kinda like "If you can see Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris can see you...if you can't see Chuck Norris you may be seconds from certain death!"

as ever,
Dr. X

[FN74]

Depends mostly on your AO. Differant areas will have differant engagement distances due to build up or rural settings, woods or farms etc. In my area one can expect any range from 0 to 1000 meters, however I would never try to engage past 200 when possible, counting on avoidance as much as possible beyond that range. Does not mean that I don't practice for engagement beyond that range, as I do, just that I will try not to engage except when necessary at any range, much less beyond 200 meters.

[Dr. X]

I will try not to engage except when necessary at any range, much less beyond 200 meters...

+1! I, myself, am not exactly rollin' in ammo, so I doubt very seriously that I will be doing any "recons-by-fire". Flying below the radar has always been my method of operations, and will continue to be as things deteriorate...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[Ducttape]

With all the wide open spaces up here in the mountains , we regularly take our longer shots from 400 meters out to 800, thats with .308 and .300 win mag. Everything under 400 and at least 12" wide is to easy not to hit. We practice to make every shot count as we only have so much , and even then it's not enough.

[Imaexpat2]

In a SHTF situation I think most of the engagements one is going to find themselves in will be up close and personal. Im thinking inside 50 yards unless they make thier intentions very clear from distances further than that, ie...looters and rioters.

While I can hole up in my retreat, eventually I am going to have to get out and do some work such as gardening, tending live stock, getting some wood or water. Sooner or later I am bound to get caught oustide the compoud and have someone stubble into me or my small group. Hence the opinion above...

[sparkky]

everyones situation will be different but I would concur that most ranges would be 100 yards or less.

[BRONZE]

I agree with most that if you live in a wide open plains type area a 7.62 would be a good choice but, most live in a semi urban/suburban areas where it we be hard to get a long shot if your not asking to be shot.

[az1]

living in the desert...300 to 1000 yrd...308 rules...;)

[MdlMkr 7.62]

So class, what did we learn from New Orleans?

[Dr. X]

So, class, what did we learn from New Orleans?

That once the power goes out it don't take too long fer sh*t to go all to hell...:(

as ever,
Dr. X :cool:

[MdlMkr 7.62]

Dr X is the head of the class!:D

[Jonas Parker]

In a SHTF situation I think most of the engagements one is going to find themselves in will be up close and personal. I'm thinking inside 50 yards unless they make thier intentions very clear from distances further than that, ie...looters and rioters...

I agree. No sense starting a shootin' war with folks who are just passing through. At 51 yards I question their intentions. At 50 yards (right where the "Posted" signs will be) starts the "free fire zone".

[crusty]

I am well prepared for whatever, I plan on not engaging unless unavoidable. Once you apply the proper pressure with your index finger there can be no more going back to the innocent life that we once had. I understand it, dread it ,and will not shrink from it.
My philosophy is one of blending in. My SHTF gear is not camouflage I do not plan on donning an assault vest in the city and trying to get out. I plan on having what I need and needing what I take only. M1 Carbine with paratrooper stock and a light cover I made attached to Black back pack doesn't even look like I'm armed. 45 auto and other quick necessities to get me home to my main equipment. Hopefully I will be able to drive, but if not I will not stick out like a sore thumb and have every cop wanting to talk to me and ask stupid questions when I haven't the time.
I do carry a very light weight camo net that I can don once I hit the bush though.
I do not think that the gut eaters will be out for a while and then they usually only want TV's and the like at first. I can walk out of my midwestern city in 30 minutes even at my age.

[Jonas Parker]

... I do not think that the gut eaters will be out for a while and then they usually only want TV's and the like at first. I can walk out of my midwestern city in 30 minutes even at my age.

TVs with no electricity??? I doubt that even the "gut eaters" are that stupid... but one never knows...

[Carters Cavalry]

Good thought, IMHO. < 100yrds, keep your head down and hope to remain unnoticed. That said, if unwelcomes are going to happen into an area it would be better they did not, work your way to their rear, hit from behind them or from a rear flank. Do you best to relocate during the cover of confusion hopefully, unnoticed.

That may stop forward movement toward whatever asset would have been in their path to be relocated.

/r


Well you guys like the 7.62 over the 5.56, so tell me this.

What do you think the most likely engagement range will be after SHTF.

I think any contact over say a 100yds. I would evade.

[GUN SNOB]

If I only get one I will have to go with the max. efective range and penotration.
Maxamise the usefull ness of my equipment and the ability to use my training as it were. To me that means semi-308/7.62

Im in semi-rural w/central Alabama. Lots of under brush, vines and swamp and lots of cleared fields and pasture. I want a bulet hever than 55-75 gr. wont be going house to house or to town if I can help it. (short term break down, 1-3 month)

The ranges will depend on the BG.

If its gang bangers with AKs, SKSs, glocks and tec-9s etc. Id guess there range under 150m. (down the block)

Good ol' boys with a 7mm and you may not here the shot that kills you from the other side of the bean field.