The Effect of Uncle's Plans On One's Survival when the SHTF

[411man]

How many have thought about what Uncle sammy plans to do and what he has to do it with when the SHTF ?

Here is a start. Uncle Sammy is having a very difficult time maintaining 125,000 men in the field in Iraq currently. Read the story linked below then ask how he would secure and control the 200 largest cities in a SHTF situation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16047588/

Now, how many troops Regular and National Guard, would be available to spread to 200 cities on average?

How much equipment would those units have available for use?

I was told back in the 1990s that it would take a division to control New York city alone ( the source was the then Commandant of the US Marine Corps.).

My point is, Uncle isn't going to have troop strength, equipment, food, nor other supplies to waste on rounding-up and guarding ten's of thousands of gang members, common criminals, and other threats to his control and maintance of civil order under such circumstances. Yes I read what the plans say however, when it comes to a totally catastrophic disaster Natural or man made, the limitations which will exist will compel alterations to what otherwise would be done.


What this fact means to those who choose to remain "outside the wire" so to speak, is that they will need to expect and prepare for dealing with those criminal types who are expelled from the Urban centers. These hostiles will be left to their own devices in order to provide for their survival. Of course all law abiding civilians will be offered the opportunity to avail themselves of Uncle's protection and care as long as they surrender their arms, food, and any other equipment needed for the greater good by the authorities.

Give a read to the information in these links to FM 19-15 and 19-40 as well as Operation Plan 55-2.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/19-15/CH1.htm
http://www.raven1.net/fm3-19-40.htm
http://www.uhuh.com/control/garden.htm



Given these circumstances, what planning, equipment, and provisions would be needed in order to maintain one's survival in such a situation?

[Jonas Parker]

Your numbers are wrong. An army division is 10-15,000 troops. The NYC police dept. is 28.000 officers. The only way to really "control" New York City would be to seal the tunnels, collapse the bridges, then have the entire US Coast Guard surround Manhattan Island 24/7/365 with .50 cal machine guns...

My numbers may be off here too, but if I'm not mistakened, in it's entirety, the US Army has 10 divisions of regulars, the marines have 3 divisions. Of those 13 divisions, 3 are permanently deployed to Korea and Germany, Total regular strength of combat troops is then about 130,000 men.

If you accept the premise that Nat'l Guard and Reserve troops are unlikely to attack/disarm/imprison civilians, and that the job would have to be done by 130,000 combat troops plus members of ATF/DEA/FBI etc., you'll see that the US government would have a difficult time holding the 10 largest cities in the US against the present street-gang population. Toss in 70,000,000 gun owners (and what gun owner do you know that owns just one gun?), many of them Viet Nam and Gulf War vets, and the probability of the US (or Mexican or any other) government taking over and enslaving this country becomes so low as to be statistically insignificant.

The only possibility then is for a WMD/mass casualty event occuring in many places at the same time. Even then, those of us in rural areas would not be faced with the feared concentration camp/enslavement proposed because of numbers, area, and arms.

[sparkky]

don't forget our UN and NATO "allies" that would come and help out the US troops. Many countries in the would could not financially afford to stand by and watch the US collaspe internally.
And also don't forget the "holyer than thou" state and local LEOs that would be more than glad to do the dirty work on us poor peasants till they discovered that eventually they too will be targeted after they have done their masters' bidding and dirty work. The hunters become the hunted.
Most in very rural areas may be left alone until that "sector" becomes "hot".
I do, however, agree with theory of the complete foreign take over/occupation theory without the use of bio/chem of some sort as mentioned above.

[firestorm]

SIMPLE!!

All gov. agencies will ban together. That is why every agencie have been given guns, from the irs to the dog catcher . Its gotten so bad we now have a local vol. fire chief trying to act like a cop since the latest PAT. ACT came out, he now carries a side arm and demands id from who ever he wants. We have had foreign troops in-country from the late 60s . I saw them myself. Since that time we have been training them and turning over our mil. bases to them. the Germs have an airbase in NM, the Chinese have at least one of our navel bases in Calf. I have heard of other navel bases and or deep water ports being turned over to other countries in the gulf and east coast. {I do not have 1st hand knowledge of the gulf or the e.coast. If someone does please let us know. :) } SO when the SHTF in whatever form it may take, our wan na be MASTERS need body power they just need to call on the un , china , russia , cannada, mex and everyone else in this world that doses not like us and voila they have all the body power they will need.:o So plan out your own RULES OF ENGAGEMENT study them, train with them {as best you can } , and prepare for the worst and pray for ALMIGHTY GODS guidance and protection in the coming hard days ahead! KYPD STAY ALERT

[Arizona Highlander]

I think you folks are on the right track here. Our fighting men (who might indeed refuse to fire upon American citizens) would be sent overseas to kill Iraqis or Iranians, and the American public would end up taking their orders from de-facto mercenaries (like the Blackwater security people who patrolled the streets of New Orleans) or foreign military troops operating under the UN flag. And I suspect that none of these guys would likely object much to shooting uncooperative Americans.

As the late Jeff Cooper once wrote, “Pretty dreary talk, but these are pretty dreary times.”

[411man]

One example of current divisional man power levels today is the 4th Infantry (Mechanized) at near 32,000 .

My point is however, with 10-15 divisions plus National Guard support units and UN troops, local law enforcement, and state law enforcecment combined will still fall short of leaving man power resources to waste on guarding and feeding criminals which could simply be forced outside the chosen urban centers Uncle wants to maintain.

This is why anyone planning to live in the rural areas needs to prepare to deal with the roaming hostile criminals they are sure to encounter at some point unless one is so far back in the hinderland that access is extremely difficult .

Certain tools, supplies, and plans are called for to prepare for such threats.

[mrrk1562]

some of these rual areas are being over run with drug gangs as we speak ..meath labs are poppng up in places at an alarming rate ..other known gangs have been moving into rual areas for years mostly the la gangs and then thers ms13 a mexican gang ..this why it is best to already to be in place ..as any one new that comes into town will be known as a new comer ..and not all gang bangers are black or hispanic ..the white kids of rural areas are being targeted for membership in these gangs why becuase they can move around a lot easier in these areas its all about the money ..but thats a good thing makes them stand out ..know who they before the sh%% goes down ..as for me the peaple work for are locals they know me and i get things done for them

[411man]

Excellent point mrrk1562. One needs to know and keep track of future and potential hostile threats as they should be immediately neutralized in a SHTF situation. Some will ask why? It is necessary that one use the element of surprise to ensure friendly casualties are avoided and that the hostiles have no opportunity to strike as they most certainly will.

While this course of action is specifice to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI circumstances it none the less must be planned for. Once law and order forces cease to be available the lawless will exploit the situation at once.

[12guage]

I think your over looking something. To control and enforce laws and rules would require a very large nmber of troops, but to shut down (say LA) could be done with a few hundred.

How many routes in? Pick a location that is tactically advantageuos, 1 platoon with lots of fire power, no one will leave. That allows all the wannabe LEOs out there to control - drive around acting like they're in control. How many people out there would help uncle if they thought they were actually doing what was right? Volunteer firemen, reserve LEOs, retirees, and others.

By doing this, the military could very well control the major cities. Stop the food, water, energy, and medicine into a large city and prevent anyone from leaving (say due to the flu) would give them a type of control. Not 100%, but then even in a prison they don't have 100%.

Just some ideas.

[Jonas Parker]

I think your over looking something. To control and enforce laws and rules would require a very large nmber of troops, but to shut down (say LA) could be done with a few hundred.

How many routes in? Pick a location that is tactically advantageuos, 1 platoon with lots of fire power, no one will leave. That allows all the wannabe LEOs out there to control - drive around acting like they're in control. How many people out there would help uncle if they thought they were actually doing what was right? Volunteer firemen, reserve LEOs, retirees, and others.

By doing this, the military could very well control the major cities. Stop the food, water, energy, and medicine into a large city and prevent anyone from leaving (say due to the flu) would give them a type of control. Not 100%, but then even in a prison they don't have 100%.

Just some ideas.

How many roads go out of the LA area? 100? 200? 1,000? How about hiking trails? How about the ocean? How about just hiking out off trail? You don't seem to have any concept of the tactical situation...

Oh, and you spelled your name wrong too... its Gauge, not Guage

[12guage]

As to how many trails, I don't know, but you might want to look at a map and count how many paved roads leave the LA basin, its not as many as most people think.

As to how I spelled my handle your right, its spelled wrong.