black powder weapons...

[Dr. X]

I was wondering what you'uns thought about black powder weapons as a viable alternative for TEOTWAWKI. I've finally rounded up the stuff to shoot my .36 cal 1851 Navy replica and now I want a percussion rifle. It seems that overall a man with little money could arm himself cheaper (Navy Arms .44 revolver, $180.00, w/NO FFL) and, with a bullet mould, could even manufacture his own ammo. Keep in mind that I'm not advocating use while ammo supplies and modern guns hold out, just as a final way to protect yerself or hunt without having to resort to bows or edged weapons...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[HottAK47]

I have owned a dozen or so C&B revolvers over the years with varying degrees of satisfaction. It seems to me that they lack the ommph and reliability that I'm used to. I kinda think the Civil War movies sort of fudge when the hero knocks a guy 6 feet backwards with his Colt .36 Mine will just barely bury the ball in a piece of wood.

For real life use I feel the Remington type with the solid frame are much better then the Colt with the open top strap. IME the cheaper ones(especialy the brass framed ones) will shoot the cylender pin loose in short order which causes poor hammer impact and unreliable ignition.

[Dr. X]

Great. MINE has the brass frame. By the same token, I don't expect to hit the line runnin' with a .36, but it'd beat a sharpened stick out in the woods, which is where I'd be more likely to be run into once the SHTF...BTW, do ya mean I can't blow somebody through the window of Mabel's Cat House ("The Customer Always Comes First") with that thing? :D :p

as ever,
Dr. X

[Imaexpat2]

I was wondering what you'uns thought about black powder weapons as a viable alternative for TEOTWAWKI.

Keep in mind that I'm not advocating use while ammo supplies and modern guns hold out, just as a final way to protect yerself or hunt without having to resort to bows or edged weapons...

I totally agree with you. I think such guns have a place in ones collection and I have several although I didnt specifically get them soley for such purposes. However 4 of the 7, I own are flint locks. One of the reasons this is the case is that if we have a TEOTWAWKI situation one may not be able to count on primers, smokless powder and brass cartridge cases being around and if that is the case prehaps percussion caps may not be available either, but home made black powder is not beyond the scope of being manufactured making flint locks a viable option from having to resort to sticks and stones. Of course one could only speculate on this...

[Dr. X]

Good point on the percussion caps. Maybe a flintlock rifle and horse pistol, just for sh*ts and grins...;)

as ever,
Dr. X

[SwampFox320]

They are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. Yet another form of reenacting I do is Rev War and my weapon of choice is the 2nd Model Brown Bess. Magically delicious... flints are easy, haha, trust me, rocks work in a pinch and you really can shove anything down the barrel.

Jason

PS-Have shot them live before with proper ball and they are suprisingly good shooters.

[Arizona Highlander]

I was into muzzle loading in a big way about 20 years ago, but just recently sold off most of my black powder stuff to fund my second M1 Garand from the CMP. :D Remaining in my bedroom closet: a brass-framed 1851 Navy replica (.44 cal, though) a Mowrey .45 “Squirrel Rifle,” and a big, booming .58 caliber 1863 “Zouave” musket.

Personally, I don’t have a big prejudice against brass-framed revolvers. They’ll shoot loose, eventually, but they served the Confederacy well enough during tough times. My brass framed revolver (mfg by “Euroarms”) is about 20 years old and still works fine . . . though I admit that it’s lucky to see a few dozen rounds a year. If you really get into black powder and find yourself shooting often, a steel-framed revolver is of course a better choice.

The replica Remington is also certainly stronger than all the Colt replicas, but for me the grip never really felt right. Thus, I reluctantly I let it go years ago. The Remingtons are great, but it may be best to check one out in your own hands before you order one sight-unseen through mail order. However, if one were concerned about an end-of-the-world situation, I’d probably forget the replicas and get a Ruger Old Army: it’s very strong, available in corrosion-resistant stainless steel, and is equipped with superior sights.

Unfortunately, though, it’s true that once you run out of percussion caps, you’re in the same boat as all the centerfire shooters - so I’m not really sure just how much better off all the muzzle loading guys would be in a real-life catastrophe. That’s not such an issue with flintlocks . . . well, provided you have a good source for flint around. The only flints that sparked well in my old, now-sold Harper’s Ferry rifle were the black English flints from Dixie Gun Works. They worked great - but all the substitutes I tried just wouldn’t spark reliably.

That’s probably why I bid goodbye to most of my muzzleloaders, and bought a Garand . . . and 480 rounds of surplus Greek ammo.

[Dr. X]

Personally, I don’t have a big prejudice against brass-framed revolvers. They’ll shoot loose, eventually, but they served the Confederacy well enough during tough times. My brass framed revolver (mfg by “Euroarms”) is about 20 years old and still works fine . . .

My Navy replica was manufactured by FIG, Italy (not FIE) in 1964. Other than minor pitting, (due to crappy cleaning) it is a very tight gun and shoots well. Nothing feels like an 1851, and I agree about the Remmy having a funky-feeling handgrip. And as far as the brass frame goes, I think along the same lines as AH, if it was good enough for the Confederacy...:cool:

[Arizona Highlander]

Yes! Sam Colt got it right in 1851, and everybody’s attempts at “improving” it further have ended in failure. There’s really no handgun out there that’s such a pleasure to just hold and fondle (but golly, that almost sounds nasty . . .).

I always wondered if a flintlock blunderbuss (c’mon, don’t laugh, guys) might be a terrific end-of-the-world weapon. While they can, of course, fire a lead ball, they can also fire almost anything you can shove down the barrel: rusty old bolts, gravel, you name it. The only critical component would be the black powder, and that could certainly be improvised (after all, the Chinese were experimenting with black powder about 2000 years ago - it’s not exactly “rocket science”).

Dixie Gun Works used to catalog a blunderbuss, but that was a long time ago. When I did a Google search for a blunderbuss today, I couldn’t find a single modern source. There were, however, a few folks were proudly offering “non-firing” blunderbusses (and other muzzleloaders) for sale - but what kind of wimpy mentality is that???? :D

[Goldenspurholderx2]

My older buddie before I joined the Army had a Hawkins Rifle Flintlock with a set trigger. He could do amazing things with that rifle. We used to be Revolutionary War re-enactors so he had about 20 flintlocks that he accumulated over the years. He even had a forge so he'd make his own springs and other small parts. For a man of his skill with building and repairing flintlocks I don't think he would ever go hungry in a TEOTWAWKI situation.

BTW- he knapps his own flint and made his own black powder at one time but gave that up because as he said "It's a pain in the a$$.".

[Dr. X]

Yes! Sam Colt got it right in 1851, and everybody’s attempts at “improving” it further have ended in failure. There’s really no handgun out there that’s such a pleasure to just hold and fondle (but golly, that almost sounds nasty . . .).


When you gotta handful of 1851, you ARE nasty! :D

Funny you should bring up the blunderbuss and "non-firing" weapons. Last summer I was seeing a gal who's ex had a blunderbuss and it was the first time I've ever checked one out. Her ex had bought a wad of BP pistols from Turkey and was able to bring them home just by stripping the flints out. THAT's what made them non-firing, the touch hole wasn't welded up at all. The bell shaped barrel was made of sand cast brass and that's the only thing I worried about, but on researching the subject, it turns out that was how they were ALL made. I wanted that sucker SO bad, but natch, her ex wouldn't sell. I'm still looking for one for all the reasons you listed...;)

as ever,
Dr. X

[Arizona Highlander]

For a trip down memory lane, here’s an ad for the Navy Arms blunderbuss, from the 1974 edition of “Shooter’s Bible:”

http://home.att.net/~gyorai/blunderbuss.jpg

Ah, the memories! That $100 price tag made me wonder why I didn’t just buy one when I had the chance back then. And just look at some of those other price tags: brand-new S&W M36 “Chief’s Specials” going for $96, or how about a genuine Colt “Combat Commander” .45 auto for $144.95 - whoo-hoo!

That was until I remembered that $2/hour was considered good money way back in ’74. In terms of *today’s* dollars, I reckon that Navy Arms blunderbuss would probably be selling in the neighborhood of $400 . . . or more.

Which is probably why I never actually bought one!

[HottAK47]

I didnt mean to step on anybodys toes but I'll pretty much stand by the statments I made insofar as they were IME : Brass framed revolvers of the Colt pattern will shoot loose if you shoot them a lot. I had several of them back in the mis 60s and literaly shot them to pieces. If I was as experienced and brilliant as I am today I believe I would be to repair them by forging oversize wedges and peening the cylender pin tighter.

In defense of the Colt design I wil say that you wil have less problems with cap fragments jamming the action due to the open topstrap. But really, the lil notch in the hammer isnt much of a rear site. And for some reason it disconcerts me to have 50% of my sighting aparatus dissapear when I pull the trigger.

As for any suggestion that I was bad mouthing the CSA, well, Hell, I'm from Texas

[Arizona Highlander]

Well, I can't exactly disagree with you about the awful sights on Colt cap-and-ball revolvers. It's hard to imagine a worse arrangement (except, perhaps, no sights at all . . .). That's where I admit that the Remingtons (and especially the modern Rugers) have it all over the Colt replicas.

And yup, brass frames WILL shoot loose after a while. I guess if you're a dedicated blackpowder shooter (and, apparently, you really are) then steel frames are absolutely the better way to go. For someone like me, who doesn't get out as often as he'd like to shoot even his "serious" weaponry (much less the muzzleloading stuff) I think brass frames are okay.

I agree, though, that there's something downright offensive about spending money on what might amount to a "disposable” revolver, if you shoot it enough.

And yeah, my great-great-great granddaddy was a Confederate cavalryman (Army of West Texas, under the notorious drunkard Gen. H.H. Sibley) so maybe I'm thinking more with emotion than common sense!