A question of weapons... close combat primative

[delectric]

I've been giving this a huge amount of thought lately, everyone should know that there is a finite amount ammunition, and should technology fail and thus fall backwards 200 years into the past....which it could. WOULD THERE BE ANY PLACE IN YOUR ARSENAL FOR A SWORD?

I've given a look at a ROMAN SHORT SWORD, not the cheap crap, but a custom hand drawn weapon, that can slice, dice and defend oneself with.

During the past few wars, there has been a few occassions where close quarter combat may have benefitted combatants involved.

Any random thoughts?

I already know two people's opinions herein, just a query to the rest. And to those two fine people, THANKS for a fine day.

http://angelsword.com/european/gallery/BK134-787a.html

[Dr. X]

I already have a Kukri and a machete. If the edged weapon needs to be larger than that, then I guess I'm doomed. Plus I would druther zap you with my crossbow from an ambush position than face you to-to-toe on the field of battle with a frackin' sword, but then, I'm old and brokedown, and come from a long line of bushwhackers...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[sparkky]

I suspect most of us will be dead LONG before we run out of ammo.
at least I know I will be.

[FN74]

Thats why .22LR was invented..... To allow even the poorest bastard to stockpile 10000 rounds easily...

[Imaexpat2]

I have thought about this too, for more hours than I would like to remember. Its quiet possible the jacked bullets, drawn cases, smokeless powder, primers may not be available if things get too bad for too long. So its definitely a concern worthy of some thought for sure. But I am not so sure that we will regress back that far, to a point where Knives and Swords are the only weapons available. I think at the least there will always be sources for black powder, now as to how available weapons for them will be at that point I cant say. There will always be sources of lead too. There anything too much high tech about Bows and Arrows. Although one I own is pretty high tech one can be made that will have reasonable power and range.

Some things I have added to my collection is Flint Lock Rifles, a couple of spear points from cold steel and I have a couple of bows and such. No swords or battle axes here. Prehaps its a short comming on my part in planning, but I just dont think were going back to the stone age, close prehaps but not quiet.

[surge223]

I can tell you one thing, if I'm out of ammo and you came at me swinging that thing, I'd be runnin' my arse off! :D

[delectric]

I have thought about this too, for more hours than I would like to remember. Its quiet possible the jacked bullets, drawn cases, smokeless powder, primers may not be available if things get too bad for too long. So its definitely a concern worthy of some thought for sure. But I am not so sure that we will regress back that far, to a point where Knives and Swords are the only weapons available. I think at the least there will always be sources for black powder, now as to how available weapons for them will be at that point I cant say. There will always be sources of lead too. There anything too much high tech about Bows and Arrows. Although one I own is pretty high tech one can be made that will have reasonable power and range.

Some things I have added to my collection is Flint Lock Rifles, a couple of spear points from cold steel and I have a couple of bows and such. No swords or battle axes here. Prehaps its a short comming on my part in planning, but I just dont think were going back to the stone age, close prehaps but not quiet.

In your second paragraph.... flintlocks are too slow to continously mount a defense without multiple weapons or a reloader doing your reloading, bows and arrows same issue, a human can cover a distance of 20 yards in 2 seconds thus closing distance faster than you can draw your arrows back..... once the enemy has closed distance you ae going to need something to block, slice and jab at an enemy... and sometimes silence can be your friend.

[FN74]

In your second paragraph.... flintlocks are too slow to continously mount a defense without multiple weapons or a reloader doing your reloading, bows and arrows same issue, a human can cover a distance of 20 yards in 2 seconds thus closing distance faster than you can draw your arrows back..... once the enemy has closed distance you ae going to need something to block, slice and jab at an enemy... and sometimes silence can be your friend.


With that same line of thought, the only option is the old style fighting - i.e. - build yourself a fort/castle. That will nullify the oponant that is not armed with heavy weapons, and maximise time for you to take them out with a bow, crossbow or flintlock. Out in the desert areas such a fort would be perfect as you'd have that clear field of fire and vision. You would stand out a bit though.... Everything has it's trade offs. I think this is the reasoning behind retreat location selection - why you want one that will position you at an advantage and potential attackers with the most extreme disadvantage.

[delectric]

With that same line of thought, the only option is the old style fighting - i.e. - build yourself a fort/castle. That will nullify the oponant that is not armed with heavy weapons, and maximise time for you to take them out with a bow, crossbow or flintlock. Out in the desert areas such a fort would be perfect as you'd have that clear field of fire and vision. You would stand out a bit though.... Everything has it's trade offs. I think this is the reasoning behind retreat location selection - why you want one that will position you at an advantage and potential attackers with the most extreme disadvantage.

agreed, however I'm in the eastern Texas area and due to the density of trees and underbrush seeing an opponent would be via ative patrols, detection methods, and intervention.
All these emethods would likely involve close quarter involvement. Also machetes are nice, but they are what they are... brush cutters, they are notorously ineffective against steel.
Weapons in this area may actually come down to engaging with the infamous street howitzer called a 12 guage shotgun with a rather short barrel, but as I mentioned once the ammo runs low, or you spent it on another engagement, you may be forced to rely on a much more primative weapon.

[Dr. X]

once the enemy has closed distance you ae going to need something to block, slice and jab at an enemy... and sometimes silence can be your friend...

That's why I spent a big 20 bucks on a Kukri. I read in a WW2 book that when a Japanese-held island was overrun by the Gurkhas, a Jap sentry was found cleaved from the top of his head to his pubic bone, split down the middle like a tree struck by lightning. Now, them Gurkhas knew how to take out a sentry!!! :eek: The Kukri also reminds me of the short Roman sword in heft and strength, and once you get used to it, the boomerang angle of the blade works to yer advantage as well...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[Arizona Highlander]

I’m also of the opinion that I’ll probably be long dead before I manage to fire the entire (ahem) 10,000 rounds or so of ammunition that I’ve got stockpiled . . .

But, as an academic question, the sword did have some genuine utility all the way through the American Civil War. Cavalry raiders (like those led by Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest) would ride into Union encampments, empty their cap-and-ball revolvers upon the surprised Yankees, and then finish the job with their swords. It worked then, and it could work now.

This seems a more workable strategy on horseback than on foot, however. And, though I’m no expert on ancient or medieval European warfare, one must recall that in Asian warfare, the sword was always something of a prestige weapon. During the Imjin War (Japan vs. Korea, 1592-1598) the bulk of the infantry troops on both sides were armed with lances, apparently because it was much more difficult to teach swordsmanship than skill with the lance. So, simply getting a sword wouldn’t exactly guarantee one’s security. In real life, a marginally skilled swordsman was usually dead meat in a match against a marginally skilled lancer. Swords are just not that easy to skillfully use.

And recall that if ANYONE you were facing had a gun handy - even a flintlock - I think you’d be rather short-lived if you were determined to attack him with a sword. I’d personally consider a sword a kind of last-ditch, personal defense weapon, even in an ultimate SHTF situation. My choice might be something along the lines of a Japanese Katana ("Samurai Sword") since it's very quick into action . . . but I'll also admit that I don't exactly have one on my must-have shopping list right now, either.

I wouldn’t automatically reject the bow. There were stories in the old west about how a skilled Indian archer could fire and reload his bow just about as rapidly as the average cowboy could fire his Colt (I’m talking about AIMED fire - not just making loud noises). And when the cowboy’s Colt ran dry, he would be in big doo-doo if the Indian had a few more arrows handy. I admit, though, that I never really got into archery, and it’s a whole different kind of skill to master. But, it’s something that I’ve been fascinated with for a long time, and there may still be a nice recurve bow in my future someday.

Crossbows are really neat weapons. I love them, and the learning curve is short if you’re used to shooting rifles. I’d sure want to have one on hand. However, they’re very slow to reload, perhaps limiting them to more specialized applications (such as an ambush).

Now, if one is *really* serious about primitive weaponry, the Kwan-dao might be the ultimate personal weapon. Essentially a tall lance with a short, heavy, curved sword mounted on top, they can weigh up to 100 pounds (!) and are said to be extremely difficult weapons to master. But, in the days of ancient China, the man who could do so was practically King of the Battlefield.

[delectric]

That's why I spent a big 20 bucks on a Kukri. I read in a WW2 book that when a Japanese-held island was overrun by the Gurkhas, a Jap sentry was found cleaved from the top of his head to his pubic bone, split down the middle like a tree struck by lightning. Now, them Gurkhas knew how to take out a sentry!!! :eek: The Kukri also reminds me of the short Roman sword in heft and strength, and once you get used to it, the boomerang angle of the blade works to yer advantage as well...:cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

I know that a $20 weapon has to be made of cheap steel, and it's life expectancy has got to be short.... do you have any knowledge on how to repair or replace it?

[Dr. X]

I know that a $20 weapon has to be made of cheap steel, and it's life expectancy has got to be short.... do you have any knowledge on how to repair or replace it?

This one looks like it was made from the leaf spring off a '49 Dodge. You should see the exquisite woodworking skill used to make the handle. It looks like it was shaped on a grinder, and probably was. The blade is nearly 1/4" thick at the back and a man would have to go a piece to break it. I've not been good to it and it hasn't broken yet. When or if it breaks, I'll replace it the Native Way, by making another one out of yet another leaf spring...;) :cool:

as ever,
Dr. X

[akfanatic]

My choice might be something along the lines of a Japanese Katana ("Samurai Sword") since it's very quick into action . . . but I'll also admit that I don't exactly have one on my must-have shopping list right now, either.

I would love to own one and learn how to properly utilize the weapon but there is soo little time (for ME anyway...).

Last year I purchased a compound bow firmly deciding to make myself skilled in its use.
The bow is still sitting and unfired...

Perhaps SOMEDAY I will find the time for some archery study.

All of that being said, if you were to come across my dead body I will likely be lying on a BIG pile of spent brass...:D

[bsdmon]

i train in an okinawan martial art we use china long staff's which once you get advanced will have a spear tip placed onto it. plenty of good swordsman have fallen to the staff. but i also have an interest in chinese swords like the jin and dao. i also train a little with escrima (phillipino stick fighting art). but yea definetely try to be well rounded if your self defense skills.

[FN74]

One thing to consider - like delectric said about brush and stuff like that near your retreat - that area needs to be trimmed back or cleared to enable a clear field of fire. Personally, for the money that would be spent on a short sword, I'd rather invest that into more .22 LR ammo. $250.00 worth of .22 LR ammo is a LOT of ammo. 12,500 rounds to be exact...

Four people spending $1000.00 each on .22 LR ammo = 200,000 rounds of .22 LR. If you go through that much ammo in a SHTF situation in a life time, you're going to have more to worry about than close combat with a sword.

I personally would not get close enough to engage someone like that, and if my ammo ran out, I would go the static defense method - hole up in the retreat with archer coverage from the ramparts. Basically I'd live in my retreat - do everything there. Farm, Raise livestock etc.

[Goldenspurholderx2]

I haven't really put too much thought into it. I could always sharpen the edge on my Cold Steel Spetznaz(sp?) Shovel. I have a good knife. Army only taught very rudimentary knife fighting, if knife fighting were computer skills I might be able to type my name.

[delectric]

Remember guys this could be a TEOTWAWKI.... technology by definition is 200 or mor years lost. Yes, there is knowledge but with the multi-tiered technology primers or production of smokeless powders are lost. Blackpowder will not function in modern weapons, and having ALL the components for blackpowder my require a lot of travel, trade, or safety risk.... anyone have salt petre readily? How about sulphur?
And time will tell if you have enough ammo, my children have burned a brick in 30 minutes of plinking. If you have a dozen kids out hunting small game, to enhance your survival meat supply, for a bad winter it could be depleted quickly.
Anyone reload 22LR ammo? The technology for that is out of my reach.... Ok flint lock people.... I hope you have a supply of lead, quality lead...where do you mine it? Well after all the wheel weights are depleted, what then?

Add this.... you been on a long range recon patrol to determine your resources beyond your AO... you have been engaged in a fleeing firefight by a stronger opposition force.... your continuing counter tactics have depleted your combat load to nothing. You are forced to use the night as much of your concealment, you cannot lead them into your AO without risking it's security.... is it time to use the night and a good blade?

[Goldenspurholderx2]

To answer the question, No there is not room in my arsenal for a short sword. If it came to that I'd whittle me up a club, fix some flint points in it, find me a garbage can lid as a shield, paint my face blue and go all Braveheart. I wouldn't be carrying a short sword around in the event I ran out of ammo on a recon patrol, a large knife or belt axe might be on my pack but that is about where it ends. I wouldn't be trying to creep through the brush with an 8 foot long pole-arm either. If my reloading supplies went dry it would be piss poor planing on my part and I wouldn't be taking much solace in a sword. I am an avid archer and that is how I plan on getting some of my game anyway if TEOTWAWKI came to pass. I have two very nice "break down" recurves so one would go with me if I had to go very far to hunt, then set it up once I got to an area with game. I would not give my children a gun and ammo to go out to get game, I would show them how to set snares, dead falls, and how to use the few traps I have (maybe I should beef those up) I might even whittle them up a club to beat anything they found in a snare or trap that wasn't dead yet. If I was trying to keep a low profile sending kids out into the woods with a brick is the last thing I'd do.

[delectric]

To answer the question, No there is not room in my arsenal for a short sword. If it came to that I'd whittle me up a club, fix some flint points in it, find me a garbage can lid as a shield, paint my face blue and go all Braveheart. I wouldn't be carrying a short sword around in the event I ran out of ammo on a recon patrol, a large knife or belt axe might be on my pack but that is about where it ends. I wouldn't be trying to creep through the brush with an 8 foot long pole-arm either. If my reloading supplies went dry it would be piss poor planing on my part and I wouldn't be taking much solace in a sword. I am an avid archer and that is how I plan on getting some of my game anyway if TEOTWAWKI came to pass. I have two very nice "break down" recurves so one would go with me if I had to go very far to hunt, then set it up once I got to an area with game. I would not give my children a gun and ammo to go out to get game, I would show them how to set snares, dead falls, and how to use the few traps I have (maybe I should beef those up) I might even whittle them up a club to beat anything they found in a snare or trap that wasn't dead yet. If I was trying to keep a low profile sending kids out into the woods with a brick is the last thing I'd do.

Remember that with that bow and arrow set, every shot you take depletes your arrow stock and the makings that were used to produce it. Were you planning on taking it on every recon mission? Does it have a secondary purpose other than delivering a projectile on target?

One of the things I'm trying to consider is the multiple use of every carried item... in this case a sword. Being a sword it can be used to hack and cut your way thru underbrush, it can be attached to a spear-point, it canbe used to cut meats and foods, it can be used to scrape surfaces, it can be used offensively and defensively, it can be used to splint up broken bones or minor surgery....well you dig out a splinter can't you?

[Goldenspurholderx2]

To me my bow is a hunting instrument only. I have enough arrows to last a bit(3 dozen) if it is just used in this capacity. I only carry 4 when hunting, 3 broad heads and one juju point for rabbits. I would only carry it if I was specifically going on a hunting trip. Rifle for personal protection, set up bow once I got to a hunting area.

I don't see how a well designed knife (like a kurki)couldn't fit the bill for what you want to do with a sword. If I needed longer reach I would use my small axe, lighter and more useful for heavy chopping, you would break your wrist trying to chop down a small tree with a one-handed short sword. Maybe I should get a hawk, the handles are easier to replace if you ever break one, but they aren't as good for chopping(trade offs). I think the sword would be too heavy(heavier than a good belt knife, light axe combo) and it would not be as useful as you believe. Try using a 10lb sledge for finish carpentry, can you do it? Probably, but you will be very tired after your second finish nail. Using a 2 foot sword to chop vegetables or bone out a deer? C'mon, you know that isn't very feasible. A seven inch belt knife lashed to a pole would make a just as effective, and not as front heavy, spear point. If you lashed it to use as a splint wouldn't the blade eventually cut through the lashings? If you had a stiff sheath maybe but you aren't any worse off using a small axe handle. Cutting brush? If I were out on a recon I would be leaving as little back trail as possible in the first place. Most machetes designed for that purpose are soft steel so you don't break the blade if you hit something substantial in your swinging, not to mention if you can swing a stout little sword like that for any length of time more power to ya. No, I still think a good belt knife/small axe or hawk combo is the way to go.

[montana bound]

baseball bat 1/4th full of steelshot makes for quite a handy weapon.

you swing and that steelshot shifts it really puts some power behind it.